I have a tendency to get long-winded

[lirazel]

Okay!

So anythingbutgrey asked me for some Spike/Buffy perspective, and my answer got long. Uh...realllllly long. So I'm moving it to this post instead of a reply because that just wasn't going to happen.

All of this is very, very stream-of-conciousness for me, so all of y'all feel free to jump in when I miss something (as I invariably will).

Here was her question:

also, i have been learning all about spuffy! and am now going to totally hijack the discussion on this post. i am well drenched in meta and discussion. also my own brain. which is starting to realize that there are more than a few parallels between spuffy and c/a, but still can't make the jump. i have established a list of blocks in this regard, and would like your assistance:

1. i don't really have an opinion on spike. spuffy is very much about spike. from my perspective.
2. i don't really like dark and twisty ships? i know, wes/lilah otp but i don't see them as as dark as most people do?
3. i just need buffy's perspective on this. when i think spuffy i think spike fans who hate buffy. i know you love buffy. tell me about youuuu.
4. i should probably rewatch s5-7, but oh look there are my ats dvds.

And here are some of my off-the-cuff thoughts!

1. I can see how this would be a hangup, certainly. I, on the other hand, have nothing but opinions about him. He's the character I most identify with--like, I am Spike, okay? If I were a Victorian gentleman turned into a vampire, I would totally be Spike. Or if he was a 20-something Southern girl, he would be me. So I love him, even when he's an ass. Which is often. I looooove him.

2. See, and I don't think it's necessarily dark and twisty. Certainly it is in S6, and I enjoy the hell out of that for what it is because I find it endlessly fascinating. But I really ship them in S7, where they're quiet and comfortable together. I like that their love then is really understated. It's like they went through all this horrible horrible pain, hurting each other in every way possible, and then S7 is about forgiveness and about how you can't just sit around and brood over your past misdeeds (coughangelcough) but you just have to keep moving forward. And they grow to depend on each other and strengthen each other and it's love: love through action, through being there for each other, through little looks and touches. It's not flashy or showy: it's steady and sure and strong. And unspoken. Which reels me in. I love that they go through hell to get there, to be grownups who are honest with each other, and then they finally do. *happy sigh*

3. Ha! There are certainly fans out there who are like that. But we've been talking a lot and we think the pendulum has swung--now it's a more Buffy-centric fandom. Most of the people on my flist worship Buffy, too (maybe not as much as I do, except for angearia who loves her even more) but certainly a lot.

Anyways! Spike and Buffy have this instant connection. Watch them interact in "School Hard"--they're so unrelentingly aware of each other, it's fascinating. But Spike is the very last kind of guy to catch Buffy's eye. She sees him as a dangerous annoyance and then there's the chip and he's just a plain annoyance. And then he falls in love with her and she's all OMGWTFBBQ about it. And grossed out. Because even if he wasn't evil and a vampire, he's this punky Billy Idol type, all energy and over-the-top statements and sarcasm. Buffy likes the strong and silently manly football player type.

But! He tells her he's going to change for her and then he starts to. The first time she really sees him and what he's capable of is when he withstands Glory's torture. And she sees that there's more to him than flash and sarcasm: he can do something real. And so she sort of starts to respect him and trust him to take care of Dawn. She still believes (because of Angel(us)) that he can't really love, but she knows he can feel and keep his promises and she knows he cares about Dawn and will fight for her.

Then she dies. And when she comes back, everything's hard and HELLO CLINICAL DEPRESSION. And everyone wants her to be okay all the time but they don't want to help her and it's so exhausting. And Spike's just there and he doesn't demand anything and he listens. And for a while all is sweet and lovely. And they start to be friends. After all, they've been through a lot together and when he's not being an ass (which is often) or she's not being a bitch (which is often), they actually get along.

And then she kisses him and everything is downhill from there. Because they were learning to be friends, but that kiss gives Spike hope for something more. And so he starts pushing. And Buffy starts using him. He thinks that this means she's coming around, that she might love him and he gets greedy. Buffy, on the other hand, isn't capable of being in any kind of healthy relationship, but she craves both death and life, and Spike represents both of those. He is dead and knows what clawing out of his grave is like--and she yearns for that. But at the same time, Spike's always been so vivid and vibrant and alive, and she craves that, too. And no one in her life is paying her attention--Giles is gone and Willow and Xander are both caught up in their own drama. And Spike is there. Plus, the sex is really fantastic. Like, really, really, really fantastic.

And it becomes a power play, pulling and pushing, both of them hurting each other (and themselves) to get what they want. Buffy breaks up with him and he just can't handle it and he has the breakdown in the bathroom and tries to rape her (though he never would have thought about it in those terms).

Cue identity crisis of the highest order. He's always sworn to himself that he'd never hurt her, but now he has. He tried to be good for her for a while, but that didn't work, and the whole sex thing did for a while, but then she rejected that, too. And now he sees that his nature is in conflict with what he aspires to be, and he's all WHAT TO DO?

snickfic puts it like this:

The AR triggers Spike's soul quest because he disappoints and shocks himself by breaking his own ironclad rule, which says that he never hurts Buffy, not really. We may see his verbal jabs and his nagging for sex as harmful, but he doesn't. It's not until the AR that he so shocks himself with the results of his own behavior that he's willing to get a soul to make it right.

I think that epiphany is key to his journey: the realization that even he is dissatisfied with his evil nature....he is upset to find that his two impulses - to be devastated and to not care - are in contradiction. He's said all along that he can be evil and love at the same time, those two things are pointing him in opposite directions, and he's just now having to deal with the fact.

But back to Buffy!

So a lot of this is in the interpretation from here on out, because she doesn't say much about her emotional state. From S5 on, she's very much held everything inside and rarely talks about her emotions. So there's room for disagreement here. But this is how I see it.

Buffy's very shaken by the AR. Because even though she told herself she didn't trust Spike...she did. She may not have trusted him not to go out and do evil things, but she trusted him not to hurt her. (And to protect Dawn. One of the most interesting things to me is that right after Spike hurts her, she still tries to take Dawn to him to look after her. Clearly, the AR doesn't change her belief that he still cares about Dawn and would never hurt her.)

So one the one hand, she's obviously hurt. On the other hand, it offers her confirmation that she was right all along--this guy is evil and he can't be more than that. Because Angelus wasn't. If he's capable of more, that destroys her worldview, and we can't have that. So she puts it from her mind and carries on, because she is Buffy Summers, and that is what she does.

But then he comes back. AND HE HAS A SOUL.

Let me take this opportunity to quote from the GREATEST SPUFFY META WRITER EVER, the_royal_anna:

Buffy talks a lot in Season 7 about the fact that Spike has a soul. Of course it matters to her. It is everything to her, because she is the one who lost Angel his soul. That is who she is. That is what she is worth. She is the destruction of what is good and the end of hope, and she can save the world a thousand times but that will still hang over her. Until now. Because suddenly this is how much she is worth – she is worth a soul. She is worth a vampire going out and getting a soul for her, all for her, and yes, it matters to her. She is the Slayer and she can do anything and everything but she cannot earn back that soul, that damn soul that was lost at her hands and regained only for her to destroy it again, sending it to straight to Hell. But this time, this vampire takes it out of her hands. She cannot earn back that soul but he can. And what Buffy is only just starting to understand is what he can do for her is as much hers as what she can do for herself, that this gift of a soul is part of who he is, and who she is, and who they are.

I think what I love most about Season 7 is that over the course of it, Buffy and Spike become stronger and more dependent.

In a world that loves to tell us we should all be strong and independent there's something very extraordinary about that.

So he comes back and she's very shaken, because there's these two conflicting ideas in her head:

UM HE REALLY HURT ME

UM HE GOT HIS SOUL.

So she doesn't do a lot for a while, trying to recover, but eventually she starts to try to pull him out of the pit he's in.

It all comes down to "Sleeper" and "Never Leave Me." Spike's been killing. BAD BAD BAD. But when he asks her to kill him in "Sleeper," she realizes that he doesn't want to, that he wants to be more, that he really did want his soul and that he wants to be a kind of man. So she takes him home and patches him up and tells him she'll fix it and then gives him the MOST BEAUTIFUL SPEECH EVER.

Here's a reminder:

BUFFY
Listen to me. You're not alive because of hate or pain. You're alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance.

SPIKE
(lunges violently at her, but chains hold him back) Window dressing.

BUFFY
Be easier, wouldn't it, it if were an act, but it's not. (walks toward him) You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man.

SPIKE
Buffy...

BUFFY
(in his face) And you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you, Spike.

She sees what he can be. No one else has ever transformed themself for the better the way he has, and she totally believes that he can be more. It's a huge moment.

So she sees him as a person. As a good man.

From there, the rest of the season is about her falling in love with him and him learning to love her in a way that isn't grasping and greedy.

Now, as to why she's attracted to him now, there are a couple of things.

A.) THE SOUL. UM, HUGE DEAL. HUGE HUGE HUGE. Nothing could be bigger to her.
B.) All they've been through together. One of my favorite quotes is "Love is what you've been through with someone." And whoa have these two been through a lot.
C.) Most importantly:

Buffy's personality has drastically changed. Despite enjoying some early!season!Spuffy!fic, I don't think preS5/6 Buffy would ever be attracted to him. But as she gets older, she pulls into herself more. She becomes more and more introverted, more and more self-contained. And she becomes the kind of person who can love him. For the past year or two, she's grown apart from her friends as well: they never really understood what she was going through, how alone she was, and boy does she ever feel alone. She and Xander start to mend their relationship (S7 is pretty much the only time I like Xander, because he finally grew out of his Nice Guy, I'm-Such-an-Oppressed-Geek-though-I'm-ridiculously-privileged! routine), but still. There's a distance.

Enter Spike. Their dynamic shifts back to what it was in early!S6: he doesn't demand anything of her, she doesn't have to be peppy!Buffy or strong!Buffy or anything else with him. He really has seen the best and the worst of her (I'm not such a huge fan of the "Touched" speech, but that line? DEAD ON) and he still thinks she's wonderful. I think she's reached the point where she's given of herself for so very, very long that she feels that she has nothing--is nothing--left. And yet he thinks she's warm and beautiful and kind and all of these things that she wants to be but can't because she has to make herself hard and apart in order to take care of everyone else ALL THE TIME AND SAVE THE WORLD DO IT BY HERSELF POOR GIRL LET ME HUG HER.

So just as she sees what he can be (and tells him so), he sees what she is. And here's this guy who would go to the ends of the earth to become better and who she can joke around with and who will sit there in the quiet with her and let her be herself. They become a great team, dependant upon each other and all the stronger for it. She's feeling such huuuuuuge amounts of pressure to take care of these girls and save the world, and she's petrified of getting close the Potentials because she knows that some of them will die, and she's having to play general which is not a role she ever wanted, but she keeps getting up and carrying on and he's always, always there for her.

He's the kind of man who will get a soul. He's the kind of man who would die for her and the world and the mission. Of course she falls in love with him.

I'm not sure at what point, though, she figures that out. Because I think she expects love to be like it was with Angel: DRAMATIC! FORBIDDEN! WHEN YOU KISS ME I WANT TO DIE GAG ME WITH A BEARCLAW! But with Spike it's just quiet and steady and everyday but at the same time it burns deep and true enough that their hands ~SPONTANEOUSLY BURST INTO FLAME while she stares at him completely in love with him and he tells her to go live her life. But she knows at that moment. What she feels for him is love, and it's different than it was when she was seventeen, but it's no less real or precious.

She stands on the edge of the hellmouth, the crater that's taken the place of the burden she lugged around for years like a ball and chain, and she has a future and hope for a real life and a chance to heal, and she has that because Spike gave it to her, because of who he was and who she is and who they were together. And because of the crazy journey they went on that started out enemies and then became reluctant allies and then annoyances and then people who respected each other and then unrequited love and then friends and then self-destructive twisted passion and then forgiveness and love and peace and did I mention love?

And so she smiles.

Okay, now I've made myself all teary-eyed.

4. OMG ELYSSA STOP REWTACHING ATS EVERY FIVE MINUTES!!! ;D

Gah. I'm such a loser. Oh well. At least I have something to start with for my het_reccers manifesto!

Comments

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

But I really ship them in S7, where they're quiet and comfortable together. I like that their love then is really understated. It's like they went through all this horrible horrible pain, hurting each other in every way possible, and then S7 is about forgiveness and about how you can't just sit around and brood over your past misdeeds (coughangelcough) but you just have to keep moving forward. And they grow to depend on each other and strengthen each other and it's love: love through action, through being there for each other, through little looks and touches. It's not flashy or showy: it's steady and sure and strong. And unspoken.

This. So well put. The whole post, really, but this says so much about them and why I don't understand how anyone can say she didn't really love him.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I seriously wrote it in about ten minutes, so I didn't know if it would be coherent at all.

but this says so much about them and why I don't understand how anyone can say she didn't really love him.

I KNOW RIGHT? I will never understand. I think those people think the only way to love is the way she loved Angel. And clearly she doesn't love Spike that way. But who says that's the only way to love? I personally prefer the way she loves Spike, but I wouldn't say one or the other is really better.

Long comment got long, oh my.

[jnb71976.livejournal.com]

Oh, you just made me tear up. With the lip wibble and everything. This is so perfectly lovely. This is my ship!

Spuffy is only Spuffy because Buffy is as amazing as she is, and Spike is as amazing as he is. I'm saddened that anythingbutgrey has only seen the Buffy-haters of this fandom. They tend to be noisy and write lots of fic. So I get that that's the perspective someone new might see. But it still saddens me.

Because "Spuffy" people who only love Spike and bash Buffy aren't really shippers at all. They're just Spike fans who want to give him a happy. Since his preferred source of happy is Buffy, they toss her at him. But not without the requisite verbal smacking her around a bit for being such a horrible person beforehand, of course. Because we gotta have the caveat that Buffy done wrong, paint her up and pour some feathers on her. People, I say thee nay.

Buffy is everything, and not just by virtue of capturing Spike's attention. She's so full of love and that is one of the most terrifying things for her to try and hold - so she squeezes it down and pushes it tight so it won't ever hurt her again. She makes me ache with her strength and vulnerability that she tries so hard to vanquish - she can hide it from everybody. Except Spike. Spike sees her and knows her and loves her with reckless abandon. Buffy can't have that. Thus begins the cycle of difficulty for our heroes. But he keeps loving her. He keeps living it. She keeps moving forward. She lets him be her anchor when the storm is so high it smashes her down again and again. When he loves her so much he lives it by repenting and earning his soul - she finally allows herself to start living her love for him too. Because finally, it might be safe. Finally, she can be his anchor in the storm. She can save him, and she does because that's what Buffy does. Finally they can live their love so fully it's etched in every line of their faces and every action they take.

Buffy & Spike show each other haw to be Love. They say it in action, which is what true love is. It is also why I'm a Cangel. Because Love is Action. You love someone by living it. Buffy and Spike live it. So do Cordy and Angel.

Re: Long comment got long, oh my.

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

people i love: cangel shippers. have i met any fandom i love more than the c/a fandom? no. have i been in this fandom for a month at most? yes. obsessed. hence i am here to say... i don't know, that i love cangel shippers? of course.

i think a lot of this is a gross misunderstanding, on my part, of how buffy summers works. in large part this is because i haven't watched btvs in a while, and my understanding of really breaking down character constructions is VERY new and pretty much stems from all the meta i've been reading (and sometimes writing) in the ats fandom this month.

tl;dr: i have to rewatch this show but i can't make myself do it because oh, do i hate later season scoobies with every fiber of my being.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

OMG. I think you're going to make me cry. At work. I should've stopped reading at like the 4th paragraph--because my emotional control went downhill from there.

This was perfect and lovely. And perfect. Did I mention perfect?

And I think I just had a weird epiphany while reading--When you said:

I'm not sure at what point, though, she figures that out. Because I think she expects love to be like it was with Angel: DRAMATIC! FORBIDDEN! WHEN YOU KISS ME I WANT TO DIE GAG ME WITH A BEARCLAW! But with Spike it's just quiet and steady and everyday but at the same time it burns deep and true enough that their hands ~SPONTANEOUSLY BURST INTO FLAME while she stares at him completely in love with him and he tells her to go live her life. But she knows at that moment. What she feels for him is love, and it's different than it was when she was seventeen, but it's no less real or precious.

it triggered a realization--or maybe a speculation-- in me. Speaking for myself--I'm an adult and have been in a few relationships--but my ability to function in relationships or even identify them as relationships that are good and meaningful to me has been seriously hindered by the brand of love that Hollywood pushes down our throats--as you say, flashy, when-I-kiss-you-I-want-to-die type stuff.

Angel is Buffy's Hollywood love. The stupid drama of it all made it impossible to see that there wasn't a whole lot of substance. And it makes it almost impossible to recognize the substantive stuff she experiences with Spike as love.

Okay, that all seems pretty obvious, right? But my epiphany was that I wonder if the whole thing (the shippy romantic aspect of the show) is a meta commentary on what those cloying, over the top, rom com versions of love do to our perspective. That believing only in a kind of love that is epic in the Hollywood sense creates a situation where you can't recognize what is real. Which then underlines the importance of that relationship catchphrase (that angearia pointed out for Buffy/Spike. Real. We end up ignoring that which is real in favor of that which has insinuated itself into our consciousness as eternal, forever love. Or maybe I'm over analyzing.

Sorry for the ramble. Bored at work.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Don't apologize! It's a great ramble. And I 100% agree.

This actually identifies why I prefer Buffy/Spike over Buffy/Angel, but also points to what I love about Cordy/Angel and also hate in how it was executed. The real parts of Cordy/Angel are beautiful, but the when-I-kiss-you-I-want-to-die parts make me want to gag.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

Hey sweetie. Is it okay if I link this on the Herald?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Sure! Thanks for asking!

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

Buffy talks a lot in Season 7 about the fact that Spike has a soul. Of course it matters to her. It is everything to her, because she is the one who lost Angel his soul. That is who she is. That is what she is worth. She is the destruction of what is good and the end of hope, and she can save the world a thousand times but that will still hang over her. Until now.

oh.

that is.

that is good.

OKAY I AM PONDERING THESE THINGS. i think this requires a re-watch of at least s5 and 7. which i will get to eventually, my dvds are like 30 feet from me. if the ats fandom has taught me anything it's that meta will save the world. a destructive part of me wants to read buffy/angel meta because SOMEONE EXPLAIN THAT FUCKERY TO ME but i know it will completely ignore angel's character arc and seriously piss me off. but that's a different story -

okay. okay. i am processing. i do have major issue with seeing red, and that's a major issue and i know i've spoken to both you and crackers4jenn about this at length. i think the best avenue for me into this is actually the sheer parallels between c/a and spuffy - not because the content was the same but because the themes of the arcs are very similar and how much fucking meta have i written about c/a in the last, what, three weeks? a fuckton. i love those kids. so that is how i'm trying to look at it, but it's hard for me, i think, because spuffy is this tough nut to crack and i need to crack it, peer inside. but it has been years since i watched btvs 5-7 and a lot of that is tied up in the fact that spike carries so much of the narrative and oh look i don't care? problems i have. but marketchippie, who is just now watching btvs/ats, is REALLY into spike and she wrote some mini-meta in a comment to me slash a post about spike/dru the other day that made him make sense to me. very odd. other people get him so well and i just try and take it in, because while i THOROUGHLY dislike the way he captures the ats narrative in s5 (thus giving birth to every single one of my spike issues not already in place from seeing red?), he is an important part of buffy's narrative. i used to get buffy, and then i got angel and was like "buffy summers. feelings i have on you." i have a ship war within myself. it's fine.

this comment may or may not have had a point. i will be comment stalking this business like no other, because this fandom is smart, and i am going to go read that giant meta you linked to.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

There's also some very awesome feminist angles to consider with Spike/Buffy because this is the relationship that does gender role reversal. Buffy is the emotionally closed off one, the one with all the power, while Spike is more emotionally open and the lieutenant to her captain.

When Buffy's with Angel, she's very much a girl. She retreats into this little girl mode where she very much wants Angel (and Daddy and the world) to protect her and make her feel safe imo. And that softness is sweet, her open heart is adorable and endearing then. But with Spike, Buffy instead is more fully in control of her strength, more aware of her self (even when she's lost in the grips of dark depression) and in control of her power. She is self-reliant and standing tall, and Spike isn't there to protect her, but to remind her how strong she already is and that she just needs to keep standing tall. There is a respect for her power, for her right to decide, a deference for her judgment and wisdom that makes my feminist heart gleeful.

The AR is a clusterfuck, it really is. But Season 7 and all the space around it that establishes all this respect Spike has for Buffy... I love it so much. This is the sort of relationship that teases you with an antagonistic connection and witty chemistry, that takes you to dark places, and that is forged in fire, only to emerge so ultimately strong that it becomes an unspoken bedrock upon which Buffy leans (LINK IS TO THE BEST SEASON 7 SPUFFY PICSPAM EVER).


Gah, I'm gonna try to stop. Sorry, I have serious ~feeling~ on this topic.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Very interesting to read your thoughts.

Enter Spike. Their dynamic shifts back to what it was in early!S6: he doesn't demand anything of her, she doesn't have to be peppy!Buffy or strong!Buffy or anything else with him. He really has seen the best and the worst of her

I agree that this is really the heart of Buffy's attraction to Spike (and it has both positive and negative results over time, but it's there in both ways). As Buffy feels more and more saddled with responsibilities, she finds herself turning more and more to Spike because she doesn't have to pretend anything with him. This starts well before she has real feelings for him, but it also leads to real feelings. Buffy doesn't have to pretend to be 'okay' when she's not, nor does she have to pretend to be happy when she isn't. Hell, she can be mean and ugly and her very worst... and Spike just accepts her (sometimes too much -- especially when soulless, but he didn't have the equipment to know differently or to gut level understand shame and how that can be destructive). This dynamic is especially in play Seasons 6 & 7. Buffy feels constrained around others, often feeling as though she's playing a role she's been assigned. She separated from her friends because they brought her back, because they 'needed' her, because they want her to be hero, and they don't want any guilt for having brought her back. She reveals the truth to Spike because she doesn't have to put a better face on anything. She doesn't have to pretend to be happy. Of course, it turns negative because she acts out her anger knowing that Spike won't judge her for it and and that went a few bridges too far. Combining her depression with his own myriad of issues led to bad things, but Spike 'gets' Buffy in a way that others don't, knows the less pretty details (which isn't to say he doesn't have his own HUGE blinders) and accepts all of her. It's an honest relationship when it's between just the two of them.

At the bottom of it, she knows that if she screws up, Spike will accept her. She doesn't have to worry that if she disappoints him or if she screws up that he'll look at her differently or judge her. He accepts the bad with the good and sees it all as 'just Buffy' (and I do contrast it with things like "Halloween" where Buffy concerns herself with who she thinks Angel wants her to be (and she isn't even right about the guess) and with Riley, who she always felt she had be careful about what parts of herself were most on display. Buffy doesn't censor herself with Spike. She just is, rough edges, depressed moments and all. It's not a mask and it's not trying too hard. That has to be a relief. And, after all the shit they've been through, it's good to know that no matter what you do, you will be accepted-- even your icky parts. That's what Spike offered to her.

On Spike's part, I always suspected that Season 2 plays a part of it. Spike had to sit back and watch Dru/Angelus, and he saw Buffy's love for Angel, that OTT unswerving, romantic idealism... and his inner William totally identified with that. Love big and hard (and get your heart trampled for it). When Spike gives his Touched speech (that I think is somewhat flawed but I do think he sees it that way) I always think he's also remembering that girl and her heart, her loyalty. And all the shit that came afterward? He still sees that girl behind all the other stuff, because in his own way, he's walked that road himself. He knows how that feels. And he wants her to succeed in keeping that heart and loyalty and drive... because it's inspiring to him. She's inspirational and aspirational to him. She actually led him to re-connect with bits of his former self through her and, through his admiration of her, find that he can accept parts of his own former, idealistic self. And he needs that former self to be whole.

Loving her made him a better man. He'll always have that.

*sorry for the editing I have typo/spelling issues. :)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Great post! Y'all are making me so happy with all your insights today.

[madcap-shiny.livejournal.com]

As the token B/A 'shipper here who finds that Buffy/Spike makes her very cranky for a number of reasons, I must say that I appreciate this meta very much.

Like. YOU GIVE GOOD SPUFFYTALK, LAUREN. Way to be wicked articulate and cool, especially since I have previously also been frustrated by the "when i think spuffy i think spike fans who hate buffy" experience.

You are so rad. (eta: shhh i am ocd about using the same adjective more than once in a comment)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

3. i just need buffy's perspective on this.

Can I offer my answer to this? Okay!

Fandom: Why do you love Spike?

Buffy: “So, okay, I’ve done the whole vampire thing before and it ended badly. Like 'rip your heart out and stomp on it' bad. And I didn’t mean to go there again. Ever. But then he started always being around when I needed him. And doing things for me. Basically, stalking me. Creature of the night and blah blah. Whatever, it was gross. And creepy. And that was before he tazed me and chained me up in the basement of his crypt. Have I mentioned how much I don’t love ultimatums?

Coming back from the sidebar-y tangent, I was done. The obsession got out of hand and I had to shut him down, shut him up and shut him out. Then he… he protected Dawn. It made me think there might be something more to it. With vampires love is all about the sex and the violence and oh my god, hurt me baby ‘cause that’s hot. Except he kept showing up when I was at my lowest. And he’d just sit next to me, all quiet and silent. I could be… okay, I could be alone with him there. Except I wasn’t alone. It was… it was nice. And I don’t know when I started counting on him to be there. I really don’t know when I started feeling like I needed him. Or wanted him. I mean, I always knew he was kinda hot, but I had this whole kneejerk ‘ew, gross, wrong’ reaction going for me whenever I saw him. And it worked really well for a couple years.

Anyways, sex. And violence. Lots of violence. And I hated myself for giving in but still needing it. Needing him. It didn’t… it didn’t end well. I mean, how could it? I hurt him and he… he hurt me. You always hurt the one you love, right? And that should’ve been the end. He left town and that was it. I’m used to guys leaving. They always leave. It’s all a part of the ‘rip your heart out and stomp on it’ badness. But then he came back. He came back and he was insane and… I don’t know why he did it. I mean, why only he could do it and not... Spike got his soul back. I still don’t understand how that’s even possible. Evil’s evil, but he chose to be good. To give penance. To…

I can’t really explain it, but when I look at him, when I’m with him, I just know. This is love.”





Fandom: Why do you love Buffy?

Spike: “She’s… she’s Buffy.”

[jnb71976.livejournal.com]

This is why you are the very best ever, Emmie. The very best.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

YOUR POST IS THE REASON WHY I SHIP YOU!

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Just coming back to say--holy moly. Thank you for linking to [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com].

I just read that whole analysis--and wowza. I loved it.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Seriously, her meta is required reading for Spuffy.

[elisi]

Waaaaah, this is beautiful!!!!

And I'm sure you've read these fics, but for the benefit of others...

Fiery hand clasp. Gorgeous, lyrical and very poetic:
Buffy POV: What I Mean by hecatehatesthat.
Spike POV: Forget-Me-Not by the_royal_anna.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Oh GAH the Buffy POV about killed me it was so perfect. And Anna writes pure poetry as always.

[that-september.livejournal.com]

Thank you for continually reminding me why I love Spuffy. I teared up. For real.

[aisalynn.livejournal.com]

She stands on the edge of the hellmouth, the crater that's taken the place of the burden she lugged around for years like a ball and chain, and she has a future and hope for a real life and a chance to heal, and she has that because Spike gave it to her, because of who he was and who she is and who they were together.


Way to make me tear up and sniffle in the university library. Beautiful post, (especially the part about Buffy and the destruction of the soul. I never thought of it that way, damn.) and you made so many thinky thoughts spin in my head, but I have class in ten minutes so I can't discuss. So my reply will be have to be:

WORD.

:D

[jnb71976.livejournal.com]

she stares at him completely in love with him and he tells her to go live her life

I came back to reread and you made me cry again with THIS. Oh, Buffy! Oh, Spike! My heart!

[deird1]

YAY. YES. THIS.


*hugs this post*

[louise39.livejournal.com]

Lovely, lovely! He's the kind of man who will get a soul. He's the kind of man who would die for her and the world and the mission. Of course she falls in love with him.

I ship Spuffy 'cause here are two people who overcame impossible odds and found a side effect of love: its ability to make people better.
Buffy's life is harsh and demanding and difficult and Spike will support and partner her.

To also quote The Royal Anna: because it's an unwritten rule of their relationship that when the situation gets tough, they turn to one another.

[snickfic]

You win the Internet. Here, I give you happy Cordy.

I think I'm going to show this to NuHousemate, who just finished S7 and loves Spike (yay!) but sees no redeeming virtues in Buffy (woe) and pretty much ships Spuffy for Spike's sake. Maybe this will help change her mind.

(And hey, thanks for the shoutout. I'm honored to be quoted in such long and heartfelt meta as this.)

[next_to_normal]

You are so awesome. Look, even Angel agrees with you!

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

Personally my problem with a lot of Spuffy meta (and I like Spuffy, overall) is that I just. Don't believe that Spike got his soul on purpose. I know that's what they intended, but it doesn't read in the text for me. I can believe it's what he wanted subconsciously, but none of his dialogue from "Seeing Red" through "Grave" suggests that he wants anything but the chip out. I know they were going for obfuscation but they ended up with a twist that, imo, doesn't work in the slightest. So for me, textually, it always seems like Spike is lying when he says that his soul is what he went to Africa to get.

Buffy talks a lot in Season 7 about the fact that Spike has a soul. Of course it matters to her. It is everything to her, because she is the one who lost Angel his soul. That is who she is. That is what she is worth. She is the destruction of what is good and the end of hope, and she can save the world a thousand times but that will still hang over her. Until now. Because suddenly this is how much she is worth – she is worth a soul.

This is genius though. I have never thought of this, and I taught a class on this goddamn show. I have so many problems with the Angel's soul arc in S2 and how it treats female sexuality, but this is a really interesting way of seeing S7 as a subversion.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

one of his dialogue from "Seeing Red" through "Grave" suggests that he wants anything but the chip out.

The reason this doesn't make sense to me is that he goes to Africa and a mystical demon to get the chip out. What he really needs is an Initiative doctor--and I think he knows this. Just as Giles warned that the medical and the mystical shouldn't cross over, I think Spike would know that something that was done to him, a piece of metal that was put into him, well... it's probably best he get it out through scientific means, since that's how it was brought in.

Plus, Spike getting his chip out, the way the text teases at it, this theory hinges on the idea that he wants the chip out so he can go kill Buffy and get his cojones back. But he can already hurt her since the chip doesn't work around Buffy. So I don't think it makes sense. Spike only ever cares about Buffy seeing him as a powerful equal and ever since the chip stopped working against her, that's been the case. He can still beat up a bunch of demons, get himself a gang and order them to burn people out of their houses. He can still fight the Slayer to the death if he really wanted to be evil.

If he wanted to be evil, he didn't need to get the chip out because the greatest obstacle the chip presented--not being able to defend himself against the Slayer--had been nullified.

And really, it's not the chip that's really changed him. It's his love for Buffy. He can't burn that away and become the man he once was. Let's say he did get the chip out and came back to Sunnydale--he'd still be in love with her. So how would that have worked? I think he realized he was love's bitch, Spike's always acknowledged this, and he was angry about having to defy his nature because, well, he's still evil. And he resented his being the one who had to change, but he was also embracing it.

Tbh, his going to a mystical demon to only get the chip out doesn't jive for me with his motives and characterization then. His pain came from how he'd hurt Buffy when it's the last thing he wanted--that's where his existential crisis is born. How does his removing the chip resolve this conflict? Because his motive is that he loves Buffy and yet he's still hurt her horribly. That's the essential impetus.

Truly, the only way for him to change if he weren't going to get a soul would be to burn out all the love in his heart. It's not the chip that's keeping him from doing evil. It's his love for Buffy and his desire to be worthy in her eyes.

[seapealsh.livejournal.com]

Can I say that this post was dead on? Wow, you had me a little teary eyed there. Wonderful stuff.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I LOVE this meta to pieces. I love how you summarize their entire S7 relationship and make it sound so beautiful (not that it isn't beautiful to begin with, but you describe it so eloquently!). It even makes me want to believe that Buffy really was in love with him at the end (b/c I am of the opinion that while she loved him like a best friend, she wasn't quite in love with yet...if she were, I don't think she would have leapt into Angel's arms...grr JW playing up to Bangel fans).

Buffy talks a lot in Season 7 about the fact that Spike has a soul. Of course it matters to her. It is everything to her, because she is the one who lost Angel his soul. That is who she is. That is what she is worth. She is the destruction of what is good and the end of hope, and she can save the world a thousand times but that will still hang over her. Until now. Because suddenly this is how much she is worth – she is worth a soul.

This quote is simply amazing. I never thought of it that way, and it makes me even giddier about Spuffy.

DRAMATIC! FORBIDDEN! WHEN YOU KISS ME I WANT TO DIE GAG ME WITH A BEARCLAW!
And this just made me giggle. :)

Out of curiosity, why don't you like the Touched speech?

BTW, I think I'm an LJ stranger, so lest you be weirded out, I found your fics when I was going through the Seasonal_Spuffy archives, and I absolutely love them (and will, one of these days, comment and squee over those too). Anyway, this is so brilliant, just the kind of meta that renews my faith in Spuffy whenever I get depressed about how BtVS and AtS ended.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Dammit! I keep missing all the good conversations on LJ! I blame life stuff. *shakes fist*

This post made me happy. I loves it. I loves Spuffy. They both make me happy. :)

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I missed this too! And I don't have an awesome boyfriend to console me, so I win the pity party olympics!

[eldritchowl.livejournal.com]

i have to admit that my only connection to the buffy fandom of late is falling asleep to buffy episodes at night with my roommate and every so often being like, hey remember when spike was going to shoot buffy and she was crying and then they sat on the porch and they were totally in love? and flailing sleepily.

But I really ship them in S7, where they're quiet and comfortable together. I like that their love then is really understated. It's like they went through all this horrible horrible pain, hurting each other in every way possible, and then S7 is about forgiveness and about how you can't just sit around and brood over your past misdeeds (coughangelcough) but you just have to keep moving forward. And they grow to depend on each other and strengthen each other and it's love: love through action, through being there for each other, through little looks and touches. It's not flashy or showy: it's steady and sure and strong. And unspoken.

this is beautiful and ugh, it just kind of makes my heart hurt. good meta is good.

LONG COMMENT IS LONG

[ohwaluvusbab.livejournal.com]

YOU GIVE GOOD META.

Though, as the resident unromantic in the room, I'd just like to point out that the dark and twisty is part and parcel of why I love them. I love that all of season 6 can pretty much make my brain explode and the fact that I can literally think about them for HOURS because there is SO MUCH THERE TO THINK ABOUT. There's nothing shallow about their relationship. Even though in S6 it was all 'MINDLESS SEX, YAY!', there's SO MUCH to psychoanalyse and it should never be simplified down to just 'mindless sex'.

And this is just one of my tried-and-true 'ship kinks: relationships which seem utterly meaningless on the surface but look below and there is SO MUCH MEANING I could flail for hours. Which leads to another reason I love my ship: Because you have to GET them to love them. Most ships - and I don't want to generalise here, but it feels that most ships - are about the ~couple (as opposed to two-individuals-together), which means that anybody can ship them even if they don't get one or either character. Spike and Buffy? ARE SO NOT THAT SHIP. And this is why they, more so than most ships, provoke the "I DON'T GET WHY PEOPLE LIKE THEM" reaction from non-shippers who are looking at them from the outside and not grasping the complexities.

But honestly, I think this may be one of the reasons I ship it. Because it's NOT accessible (and predictable). Because it's hella controversial and has the inexplicable power to piss so many people off. (Because I'm defiant like that. *g*) Because it didn't ~give you what you wanted. Because it was daring enough to show the two characters behaving in truly ugly ways; it was never over-romanticised and idealised. Being an S/B shipper is HARD. (Ask any shipper.) Because S/B, inherently, are HARD. So much of it is so ambiguous and mindbogglingly complicated with lives ruined and bloodshed (thank you, VM), and often it's two miserable people being miserable together and making each other even more miserable - but it's all REAL, dammit.

And basically, everything that shipperx said. Why are Buffy and Spike my OTP? The back porch scene at the end of Fool for Love. "I can be alone with you here." "Why are you always around when I'm miserable?" Because they GET each other. Buffy is truly, really, authentically herself around Spike, in a way she never was and never will be with anyone else. Out of all the people in her life, it was him she allowed to see how really, truly screwed up she was.

I don't ship Buffy and Spike for the reason that "THEY BELONG TOGETHER!!1!!1!" I love them because they belong, together. (Even when being together makes them miserable.)

Phew. I'll shut up now. (Grr, you made me get all flaily and rambly. ;))

Re: LONG COMMENT IS LONG

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

I'll let You in on a secret: I love Buffy, first and foremost.

Buffy'n'Spike?

Dead Things sealed the deal for me. That backalley beating just burned it's way into my heart...

[teragramm.livejournal.com]

I am a huge Spuffy fan and I really never could understand or expalain why. This post is why. You have said everything I have felt but could never put into words. Thank you for this very thoughtful and insightful post.