lirazel | AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This day has been so full of fail. I cannot have a conversation online without someone failing horribly. Work has been more relaxing and soothing to my soul, and we all know how I feel about that.

Like this:

Having a conversation on whedonesque (duh), which is full of fail on other levels (like this gem: "I'm not sure to what extent critical gender theory is an ideal tool for analysing individual texts as opposed to identifying trends in the medium as a whole" embedded in a bunch of pseudo-intellectual stuff that basically boils down to, "You're wrong, and my privilege lets me say so"), and then the most faily thing ever is said:

Other person:

I haven't got as far as the glowy sex, but aren't you arguing the (in my opinion impossible to objectively define) line between seduction and rape? Sounds like she got the horn and went irrational, as anyone can. I think if she's fine with it afterwards then you have to allow her the empowered choice to be so. Even if it ruins the story.

Me:

No, we don't, fraac, though you certainly can if you want to. But we don't have to because Buffy isn't a person. We can ask why the writers needed to include it at all and say we think they should have thought about it more. Which is what we're saying.

AND THEN.

Other person:

Surely if we're talking about her rights then for sake of argument she's a person? Otherwise you could do anything to her.

I think that, in the same way freedom of speech means defending to the death your worst enemy's right to verbally attack you, the ultimate expression of feminism is to defend a woman's right to enjoy being raped. In both cases it's about accepting (i.e. loving) our fellow humans for all they are, even where their existence is at odds with our deepest fears. So it's about courage and self-awareness.

[eta]

AND THERE'S MORE!

What if the character of Buffy spoke to the writer, as (previously) well-formed characters often do, and said she enjoyed the coercive universe aspect of sex? Either she's a person or she isn't, can't have it both ways.

[eta 2]

FOR FURTHER PROOF THAT THE UNIVERSE IS FAILING AND FAILING HARD TODAY, PLEASE TO BE LOOKING AT THIS POST.

But perhaps not if you value your sanity and your faith in humanity.

Please read that last link I linked to (once again, here) and report the hell out of this guy. I know the superpowers of my awesome feminist flist can shut this guy down.

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hoping to not join the 'fail' crowd here.

Have you ever read The Fountainhead? Or even Atlas Shrugged? While I enjoy most of what Ayn Rand wrote, she does seem to have this complex where sex is not a positive thing, where it's a violent act of taking. And I almost feel like I have to write it off as white noise because it's so consistent among her characters that it's not even part of their characters, it's just her projecting or something. Which is horrible to think about, but -

There's a scene in The Fountainhead where the female protagonist "wants" the male protagonist to rape her because she wants him to fight for her and dominate her. And it made me sick to read it and it's not like the male protagonist can read her thoughts and it's such a violation I have to wonder what Rand, as a woman, found attractive about that. I just don't get it.

But regardless of whether it's Buffy or another character, a character is allowed to have what we would perceive as weird or not-okay preferences. The question is have those been clearly established beforehand to her sexual partner? Because role-playing is part of some healthy relationships, so why not for a character? As long as everyone's in on it and it's not "Well, I kinda liked it after the fact so thanks, I forgive you."

Today has been made of such fail. I moved my laptop to the office kitchen so I could work without wanting to explode.

I’m sorry. You know I like you. But I saw the words “Ayn Rand” and…no. I can’t do that today.

So I’m not reading your comment for the sake of my sanity, okay?

*hugs* stay away from the internet for a while, it'll get better.

Thank you. I'm gonna go home and watch The West Wing and order a pizza and try to recharge.

There's a scene in The Fountainhead where the female protagonist "wants" the male protagonist to rape her because she wants him to fight for her and dominate her.

I'm still stuck on the concept that is shared above by fraac about wanting rape. If you want someone to have sex with you, to overpower you and even hurt you--if you want it... isn't that rape fantasy where you are consenting and not rape?

Rape is violation of consent, of will. If the character in The Fountainhead is demanding violent and overpowering sex, is that rape? (I haven't read this book, so maybe someone else can enlighten me.)

I'm just stuck on the "enjoy being raped" phrase of the day. Which reads as antithetical to me.

It is antithetical. That's why it doesn't make sense. And in the book, she doesn't tell him, she just wants him to do that (we read from her POV).

Which leads to the rest of my comment.

Okay, so I read

angearia's comment to you and realized that you weren't saying in your post what I assumed someone invoking Rand in a discussion like this would be saying (trust me: a lot of people would use her justification about this sort of thing). I apologize for leaping to conclusions. Her name is a trigger for me.

Anyways! I agree with you that if you like rough, dominating sex, that's fine. But you're so right about having things established with your partner, cause that's not rape. If it's established, it's okay.

:D

I'm sorry your day has been so sucky.

I can't stop crying now and I have two articles to write before I go home.

I wish I had a punching bag (just checking).

Oh, I'm so sorry! I hope things get better! That sounds awful!

the ultimate expression of feminism is to defend a woman's right to enjoy being raped
WHAT?

Is that the second time in thirty seconds you've said that? Why yes. Yes it is.

Welcome to the universe, people.

This person is clearly brain damaged somehow? Buffy (the actual person) is telling the writers she likes to be raped ?!? WTF!

I KNOW RIGHT.

Seems the thread is closed for comments now. Great. A good article with an ok discussion and it's get closed on some rape fans douchebaggery.

I pretty much had already had to bow out of that one: I'd read the "Phasers set on snark" phase quite a few comments back and right after that is blinding rage.

But I am glad that Simon (I assume) closed down the thread. I just wish there was a final word posted on there about how completely and totally inappropriate that was.

Oh and look, since no more posting was possible he managed to make an edit about how people who talk about rape are abusive!

edit: In my world I see happy girls every day surrounded with 'friends' trying to convince them that they are victims and are crazy. I know who the abusers are and whose side I'm on. This is why I love Joss. That's all I'm saying.

KILL!KILL!KILL!

Edited 2010-05-28 21:41 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm pleased he put up a comment.

KIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLL.

Glad Simon suspended him. *is at peace with whedonesque again*

I am so happy to hear this ending to the debacle that goes OMG so far past debacle. Simon gets a cookie from me. No, really, I'm gonna send him a PM thanking him and offering a cookie if he's ever in California.

~~But, see, that's okay if it's Angel[/snark] Don't take this seriously. God.~~

Seriously that whole 'defense' is apalling.

Seriously.

Edited 2010-05-29 01:01 (UTC)

The pscyho got the thread CLOSED on Whedonesque. I got my "WHAT???" in before it got shut down.

Though... I don't like that it was closed without any word on the matter. That's one of the most offensive things I've ever read on Whedonesque.

fraac gets a MONUMENTAL FAIL in Feminism 101. There is not enough FAIL in the world to smash into fraac's face.

Hey dumbasses, this is how Buffy reacts to having her body violated!

And you know what, Helpless has disturbing similarities. Because Buffy has always wanted to be "normal", but when it's forced upon her by someone else, it's horrible. It's a betrayal. In Season 8, Buffy wants to be "happy" and for the longest time she'd wanted to be with Angel... but not like that. Not after what he'd done to her all season. So to have Buffy react happily to this bullshit...

I WANT TO SMASH FACES.

Edited 2010-05-28 21:23 (UTC)

What baffles me beyond even my anger is that this person cannot understand the difference between a fictional character and a real person. WHAT.

I am so, so glad you got your "What" in. By that point I knew I couldn't say anything: my mind was just red-hot anger.

Though... I don't like that it was closed without any word on the matter. That's one of the most offensive things I've ever read on Whedonesque.

Agreed.

Yeah, I like that parallel with "Helpless." It's such a profound betrayal.

ME TOO. AND STAB STAB STAB.

Simon posted in the thread and fraac's been suspended (though not banned). I'm frankly a bit perturbed at the implication that when he reopens the thread tomorrow anyone posting will be playing "silly sods". I take that as an implication against what you were doing and... NO. JUST NO.

I hope he just meant fraac but it doesn't read that way.

He shoulda banned that guy's ass.

Yeah. Question: was I overreacting to that other guy? The one who was all, "Oh, you're interrogating the text from the wrong perspective"? I know I went the snarky route, but SERIOUSLY? I am just so tired of privilege-blinded people telling me to sit down and shut up. I REFUSE.

I hope he did, too, but the comment (now that I'm reading it) makes me, "Hmmmm...." Especially in light of other things.

Also, this seals the deal. I'm getting

anythingbutgrey's feminazi icon.

I haven't read the entirety of the thread because it kinda imploded, but I mostly caught the tail end of it. And if someone was telling you that you're wrong for thinking thoughts, then they deserve a snarky putdown. Because the stupid might spread like wildfire and you deserve a rejoinder to such an insulting proposition.

Also, I'm hoping you'll do a The West Wing post or maybe just babble to me about it! I saw you talking about it and wanted to hear mooooore.

My snarkiness wasn't personal at all. Basically what this guy was saying is that you can't examine a text from a gender perspective--that's only useful for looking at wider culture. WHAT WHAT WHAT. Yeah, I got snarky. But he was askin' for it!

Yes! I'll definitely have a reaction post at some point, but it might be a bit. In the meantime, tonight sometime I'll babble about it at you. I LOVE IT. As you knew I would.

Oh oh, how far are you into The West Wing? I just borrowed the first season from a friend and I'm about to watch the fifth episode "Crackpots and These Women"!

How cute is Charlie? I'm predicting you're gonna ship Josh/Donna because Donna is so sassy and Josh is so bossy but Donna still gets one over him and they're awesome! What'd you think of the pilot? How amazing is the fast talking? (And I totally go back to hear the lines again sometime b/c wow but eventually you get The West Wing rhythm just like you learn Buffyspeak!)

Edited 2010-05-28 23:09 (UTC)

Look back on it, I think he did more mean fraac was the "silly sod" and that if anyone else decided to be a silly sod, they'd get suspended, too. So yeah, I don't think it was directed at you, hon.

Oh, good. :D

Yep, saw that it was closed too and so much word to smashing faces!

I can't believe that it was closed without any comment, I hope that fraac person gets banned at least.

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

TODAY I HATE PEOPLE.

But love Britta.

sounds like an average day in my world.

OT: we went to persephone two days ago (TWO DAYS AGO GOD). one day you and izi and i will hang out and the world will explode.

Depressingly so. It just all came to a head today.

THAT IS SO AWESOME. I remember taking izi there for the first time and it being so exciting! I still get the catalogue! It's still my dream workplace! I am so glad you had an awesome time.

And yes. We will. The universe cannot bear up under such awesomeness.

true facts. i miss being surrounded by feminists. being on the internet spoils me. i don't even know what to do with my hands.

YYYY. izi was like CAN YOU HIRE ME and it was adorable. i bought my mother a book. i'll tell her she supported feminism in her action. she'll love that. sarcasm sarcasm.

I know.

That is so adorable! I got the catalogue a week or two ago and saw the events they were hosting and was so sad that I'm an ocean away.

Ha! My mama also hates the feminist label and is displeased I call myself one. But she totally agrees with me on certain things--like she's all about a publishing house for women writers and she gets all upset about the objectification of women and such. But I'm never gonna convince her that even though she thinks abortion is murder, she can still embrace feminism on other levels, you know? She also thinks that feminism is anti-Christian, and I'm like, "Mama. I have zero problem reconciling my Christianity with my feminism. I can be both."

Le sigh.

omg i know. i can't even handle myself. i am so obsessed with that country, and so convinced my future life lies there, and so convinced i will marry a scotsman, and it's SUCH A PROBLEM BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW THIS HAPPENED but also vaguely concerned i will never be satisfied with anything else. i have problems. it's fine.

sighhh. my mother just doesn't get it period. the abortion thing always catches people and i think it's a shame, but my mother doesn't get any of it and i sometimes think she's been brainwashed by pod people or something because how is it difficult to understand that women are objectified, rape culture exists, this should stop?

You are me. Seriously. I went over there and became so obsessed with it and I want to marry a Scotsman, too, and I want so badly to go back over there but I have NO IDEA how to do it since you can't search for jobs. If I ever do become a writer and can make a (probably meager, but who cares?) living off of it, I am moving there immediately.

Yeah. It's such a struggle with my mama cause I never know what it's gonna be that she gets when it comes to social justice-y things. Like, I explained gentrification and white flight the other day, and she actually didn't argue with me! She kinda understood! But then she thinks that racial profiling is totally okay. WHAT. And she's like the most generous, loving person in the world, and so I come in the room and she's watching Fox News and I'm all NO NO NO I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

I know what you mean by brainwashing.

let's go husband hunting. OKAY. cool. also - yeah, how do people even find jobs? i tried to stalk idealist and it was like LOL LIKE PEOPLE IN THE UK USE THIS SITE. sit down. you could try working for a publishing house or something?

siiiiggghh. i don't know what's going on. it's like no one gave them the tools to analyze the world well so they don't. thank god(dess?) for feminism, okay. seriously. the world is so much clearer with it.

Husband hunting should definitely happen.

Well, I've kinda looked into it, and you can't actually look for jobs there. The company has to go to the government and say, "We need this person, and this is why." So it's really, really hard to get a work visa unless you're doing an internship through your college/university or sometimes through a charitable organization. But I haven't found one of the latter that doesn't require you to pay your own way.

That is so true. So. True.

I have stolen your icon.

cool. i am stalking all of the masters programs as far as the eye can see in the uk, so if i get in somewhere we'll take a field trip.

seriously? that's so fucking rude. you can't even send in a resume and then they can decide they need you? stupid uk and their stupid immigration bullshit fail.

i approve of icon stealing.

...I might consider grad school if it could get me over there.

...

I'm gonna think about this. Maybe I need to take the GRE.

Nope. Can't do it at all. It's illegal to enter the country to job search, too.

I so want to be in whatever club of awesome you and

anythingbutgrey are talking about now.

You are totally invited to the club. There's probably gonna be a post.

YOU DON'T NEED THE GRE FOR THEIR GRAD SCHOOLS.

LET'S GO! ISOBEL WANTS TO DO THIS WOMEN + LIT MASTERS AT ST. ANDREWS.

DO IT.

OH MY GOD DO SO. AS ELYSSA ALREADY SAID, THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE GRE HERE. A+ BRITAIN. ALSO YES, THERE IS THE MOST PERFECT COURSE EVER AT ST ANDREWS THAT I AM ACTUALLY OBSESSED WITH.

PLZ 2 B LIVING HERE SOON?

slash, I need to get myself to Tennessee stat.

WE'RE GONNA BE TALKING ABOUT THIS.

slash, yes, you should come. It's very pretty here right now. I was driving down the road and admiring how green everything is. Of course, it might be a bit warm for your tastes.

Just wanted to let you know that today you win at life for icon/ .gif usage. Will be making icon's comment next time Rush Limbaugh's name comes up in conversation (which it will. I'm with my daddy right now.)

Erm, I'm completely trashed by beer festival and mead, but what the frilly fuck?

I love this comment. It made my day slightly better. A+++

Glad to be of service!!! :D *beams like an A+++ student*

I think that, in the same way freedom of speech means defending to the death your worst enemy's right to verbally attack you, the ultimate expression of feminism is to defend a woman's right to enjoy being raped.

...

*sigh* Why are people so stupid?

I do not know. But some days it just makes me want to pull the blankets over my head and never come out.

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

Defending a woman's right to enjoy rape fantasies/roleplay with partner/etc.? Totally feminist. However, I am, uh, pretty sure that no one would ever sign up to have it happen in real life, though.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I mean Jesus. (Sorry, Jesus. It needed to be said.)

Exactly. Roleplay your heart out. Fantasize your heart out. But this guy CROSSED A LINE. A MAJOR LINE WITH NEON LIGHTS AND GUARDS WITH UZIS.

(Jesus is totally on our side. He'd be outraged, too.)

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

And Simon wonders why people post on LJ and stay the fuck away from cesspools like this.

I am so angry right now I am shaking.

You know this line, from Yeats:

"The world's more full of weeping than I can understand."

well, the world is more full of Idiocy and hate than I can understand.

Ever.

Beautiful poetry was never paraphrased so accurately.

I heart this comment.

Gah, I love Yeats.

the ultimate expression of feminism is to defend a woman's right to enjoy being raped.

Holy crap, dude! He/She is aware that they're posting that crap in public, right?

INSANITY.

Your icon is appropriate. Except that it doesn't just apply to fic.

This fraac person seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the word "rape." That's the most I can get without being remotely up-to-date on the comics (I believe that's what this is in regards to), but jeez. Think before you write. The other guy is just looking for attention. I don't want to inadvertently give him page views for that sick shit.

Exactly.

The latest comics kerfluffle in two sentences: Angel has been in disguise as this evil guy Twilight for the past several years, orchestrating humanity's battle against the Slayers and making Buffy's life miserable. One day he pulls off his mask and says, "Hey! I'm really Angel!" and Buffy gets all angry and then they both turn all glowy AND THEN THEY HAVE SEX IN SPACE AND MOUNTAINS CRUMBLE AND THERE ARE TSUNAMIS AND EARTHQUAKES AND VOLCANOES AND THEN THEY ASCEND TO A HIGHER PLANE.

Yeah.

As for the other guy, I'm hoping now that a bunch of people have reported him, he'll get banned.

(This is basically the exact same thing I just posted on Gabs' journal, so hey, you're in good company . . . )

I'm fully prepared to get feminist ragey with you, just not right now because I don't have much time. My most recent post about NOT HAVING TIME was because of posts like yours that I want to comment on extensively and really get the feel for the nature of the conversation, just not right now. That's what my midnight insomnia is for! So here's some quick hugs and sympathy, and I'll get back to you soon.

I totally understand the not having time. Take care of life before you let yourself get worked up about internet fail.

Oy vey. There's a reason I have been avoiding Whedonesque threads for a while. My great sympathies.

Yeah. I had ventured back because Maggie was the one who wrote the post the thread linked to, but I think I'm gonna take another break for a while.

Okay, have commented generally on conversation here, and greatly praise Simon for shutting the a-hole up. Nothing to add that hasn't already been said, and banging my head against a wall seems almost inadequate to describe my reaction to this guy.

Oh, and points for the Achibe reference. Things Fall Apart was the first post-colonial work I ever read (as an ignorant freshman in my first survey of world literature class), and am delighted to know he has critical theory to read as well (though most of my critical theory work on post-colonialism was trying to say Yeats was a post-colonial poet because he wrote about the Anglo-Irish experience in the context of Irish independence. It wasn't a very strong argument, but it was fun).

And Dana5140 may be the latest person I decide to fangirl and harass until he hie himself over to LJ (or hie herself - Dana's a gender neutral name, y'know).

But yay for you for wading into the mires of Whedonesque once again for those of us not brave enough to (or whose therapists strongly advise against it).

And Dana5140 may be the latest person I decide to fangirl and harass until he hie himself over to LJ (or hie herself - Dana's a gender neutral name, y'know).

'Himself', in this case.

(Isn't he wonderful!)

Achebe is awesome. I love his piece on Heart of Darkness: it is awesome and erudite.

It might not have been a super strong argument, but I like it lots.

Dana's a guy, and he is awesome and a professor in rl, I believe. I doubt he's the lj type, but he's invaluable over there.

Aw, thanks!

What the fuck is up with these Whedonesque fuckers? Someone tell me when it's go-time to register so I can get my axe out and take some names.

When's the next big holiday? I'm guessing they go by American since though the main moderators and site owner are in Europe, the show itself and the site has an overwhelming American bent.

So... maybe July 4th?

Sigh. That's like a whole month away. Well, post-it-ing to my forehead anyway.

I WOULD LOVE YOU FOREVER.

I had thought it was possible that they might allow sing-ups today since it's Memorial Day here, but it doesn't seem so. I'll give you a heads-up right before July 4th.

I aim to please/blow things up :)

Much appreciated! I look forward to the day.

The Internets seem to be made of fail today.

They really, really do.

...I MAY VOMIT. All over those people.

I am seriously alarmed for the female population in...wherever that blogger lives.

I APPROVE OF THIS COURSE OF ACTION.

NO REALLY. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

Edited 2010-05-29 18:00 (UTC)

I love that .gif. Oh, Troy. Oh, Annie. Why so awesome?

That icon is so, so useful.

What is it with Whedonesque and thinking that the characters are real people? Every time someone criticises something that Joss wrote someone starts arguing that it was the character's choice and that teh ebil feminists are just oppressing the poor fictional women.

YES. That does always happen! I seem to remember you getting into a conversation (in which you were awesome) about Dr. Saunders' shoes?

NO NO NO NO NO - he should not be allowed to put this filth on the internet and I say that as someone who is really not comfortable with censorship. However, someone I love was raped, so I just felt pure red rage fill my head when I read some of his blog. I could not read the whole thing as I just felt like I needed a shower after it. I am not suprised that such a b*****d exists but the fact that he is quite happy to write it all under his own name is beyond belief.

I read some of the comments on his blog and one of them said that he had been reported as a possible danger to female students by his head of dept. ( God help us, he is an educator.) So, while he says it is all just his opinion and he would not act on it, frankly, someone like him, who, despite seeming to be well educated and quite young, already has such extreme views, does not strike me as a person who will be content to just talk the talk for the rest of his life.

I read blogs and websites because I love being exposed to lots of different minds and opinions - that's how we learn and grow. But this guy? He just pollutes the internet and the worrying thing is that there will be some inadequate people out there who don't know how to relate to women and who wil read what he says and think that he has solved the riddle of why they can't get laid.

So I did what you suggested and reported him. I look forward to seeing him try to deal with the mighty power of women on a mission. He won't last 5 minutes.

WHAT. He's an educator? Are you serious? I'm glad someone is paying attention and reporting him, though. Because I totally agree that he seems like someone who will act.

Thanks so much for joining the fight to get him banned. Together we're mighty.

I followed the link and simply couldn't believe what I was reading. To think that someone believes this kind of moronic crap is beyond me. Someone I know wasn't raped. I was. I was fifteen(a virgin) and I can guarantee you that I didn't ask for it, enjoy it and neither was I glad it happened. Rape effects all women whether she's a feminist or not. Rape can not and should not be looked on in a favorable light. Just as it can not be enjoyed. Rape is about power, the power a man has over a woman it has nothing to do with the actual enjoyment of the sex act.

Furthermore, Buffy is a fictional character(my favorite female character) but she isn't a real person. So it's not Buffy that enjoyed that kind of sex it was the writers that brought it up.

I am so, so sorry to hear that you had to go through that. I hate a world that perpetuates this sort of evil. Your comment is powerful.

Furthermore, Buffy is a fictional character(my favorite female character) but she isn't a real person. So it's not Buffy that enjoyed that kind of sex it was the writers that brought it up.

Exactly.

I just. God. That link/last guy. I just. can't. even. I am literally writing a paper on if obscenity (read: sexually violent pornography) is causally linked to sexual assault right now. The notepad and texts are right in front of me. I should probably just cut and paste the "rape is equality" post on my paper and throw one down on culture and way too frakking fail in this world for the whole thing. Good Lord. I'll just be screaming in my pillow, here.

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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