lirazel: An outdoor scene from the film Picnic at Hanging Rock ([btvs] terrible)
lirazel ([personal profile] lirazel) wrote2010-05-28 03:38 pm

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This day has been so full of fail. I cannot have a conversation online without someone failing horribly. Work has been more relaxing and soothing to my soul, and we all know how I feel about that.

Like this:

Having a conversation on whedonesque (duh), which is full of fail on other levels (like this gem: "I'm not sure to what extent critical gender theory is an ideal tool for analysing individual texts as opposed to identifying trends in the medium as a whole" embedded in a bunch of pseudo-intellectual stuff that basically boils down to, "You're wrong, and my privilege lets me say so"), and then the most faily thing ever is said:

Other person:

I haven't got as far as the glowy sex, but aren't you arguing the (in my opinion impossible to objectively define) line between seduction and rape? Sounds like she got the horn and went irrational, as anyone can. I think if she's fine with it afterwards then you have to allow her the empowered choice to be so. Even if it ruins the story.


Me:

No, we don't, fraac, though you certainly can if you want to. But we don't have to because Buffy isn't a person. We can ask why the writers needed to include it at all and say we think they should have thought about it more. Which is what we're saying.


AND THEN.

Other person:

Surely if we're talking about her rights then for sake of argument she's a person? Otherwise you could do anything to her.

I think that, in the same way freedom of speech means defending to the death your worst enemy's right to verbally attack you, the ultimate expression of feminism is to defend a woman's right to enjoy being raped. In both cases it's about accepting (i.e. loving) our fellow humans for all they are, even where their existence is at odds with our deepest fears. So it's about courage and self-awareness.


Photobucket

[eta]

AND THERE'S MORE!

What if the character of Buffy spoke to the writer, as (previously) well-formed characters often do, and said she enjoyed the coercive universe aspect of sex? Either she's a person or she isn't, can't have it both ways.


[eta 2]

FOR FURTHER PROOF THAT THE UNIVERSE IS FAILING AND FAILING HARD TODAY, PLEASE TO BE LOOKING AT THIS POST.

But perhaps not if you value your sanity and your faith in humanity.

Please read that last link I linked to (once again, here) and report the hell out of this guy. I know the superpowers of my awesome feminist flist can shut this guy down.

[identity profile] mollivanders.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 08:50 pm (UTC)(link)
hoping to not join the 'fail' crowd here.

Have you ever read The Fountainhead? Or even Atlas Shrugged? While I enjoy most of what Ayn Rand wrote, she does seem to have this complex where sex is not a positive thing, where it's a violent act of taking. And I almost feel like I have to write it off as white noise because it's so consistent among her characters that it's not even part of their characters, it's just her projecting or something. Which is horrible to think about, but -

There's a scene in The Fountainhead where the female protagonist "wants" the male protagonist to rape her because she wants him to fight for her and dominate her. And it made me sick to read it and it's not like the male protagonist can read her thoughts and it's such a violation I have to wonder what Rand, as a woman, found attractive about that. I just don't get it.

But regardless of whether it's Buffy or another character, a character is allowed to have what we would perceive as weird or not-okay preferences. The question is have those been clearly established beforehand to her sexual partner? Because role-playing is part of some healthy relationships, so why not for a character? As long as everyone's in on it and it's not "Well, I kinda liked it after the fact so thanks, I forgive you."

Today has been made of such fail. I moved my laptop to the office kitchen so I could work without wanting to explode.
elisi: Edwin and Charles (Slayer by kathyh.)

[personal profile] elisi 2010-05-28 08:52 pm (UTC)(link)
the ultimate expression of feminism is to defend a woman's right to enjoy being raped
WHAT?

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 08:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I’m sorry. You know I like you. But I saw the words “Ayn Rand” and…no. I can’t do that today.

So I’m not reading your comment for the sake of my sanity, okay?

[identity profile] mollivanders.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 08:54 pm (UTC)(link)
*hugs* stay away from the internet for a while, it'll get better.
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[identity profile] flake-sake.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 08:55 pm (UTC)(link)
This person is clearly brain damaged somehow? Buffy (the actual person) is telling the writers she likes to be raped ?!? WTF!

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 08:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Is that the second time in thirty seconds you've said that? Why yes. Yes it is.

Welcome to the universe, people.

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 08:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I KNOW RIGHT.

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 08:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you. I'm gonna go home and watch The West Wing and order a pizza and try to recharge.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:03 pm (UTC)(link)
There's a scene in The Fountainhead where the female protagonist "wants" the male protagonist to rape her because she wants him to fight for her and dominate her.

I'm still stuck on the concept that is shared above by fraac about wanting rape. If you want someone to have sex with you, to overpower you and even hurt you--if you want it... isn't that rape fantasy where you are consenting and not rape?

Rape is violation of consent, of will. If the character in The Fountainhead is demanding violent and overpowering sex, is that rape? (I haven't read this book, so maybe someone else can enlighten me.)

I'm just stuck on the "enjoy being raped" phrase of the day. Which reads as antithetical to me.

[identity profile] mollivanders.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:04 pm (UTC)(link)
It is antithetical. That's why it doesn't make sense. And in the book, she doesn't tell him, she just wants him to do that (we read from her POV).

Which leads to the rest of my comment.

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, so I read [livejournal.com profile] angearia's comment to you and realized that you weren't saying in your post what I assumed someone invoking Rand in a discussion like this would be saying (trust me: a lot of people would use her justification about this sort of thing). I apologize for leaping to conclusions. Her name is a trigger for me.

Anyways! I agree with you that if you like rough, dominating sex, that's fine. But you're so right about having things established with your partner, cause that's not rape. If it's established, it's okay.

:D

I'm sorry your day has been so sucky.

[identity profile] mollivanders.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I can't stop crying now and I have two articles to write before I go home.

I wish I had a punching bag (just checking).

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, I'm so sorry! I hope things get better! That sounds awful!

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:23 pm (UTC)(link)
The pscyho got the thread CLOSED on Whedonesque. I got my "WHAT???" in before it got shut down.

Though... I don't like that it was closed without any word on the matter. That's one of the most offensive things I've ever read on Whedonesque.

fraac gets a MONUMENTAL FAIL in Feminism 101. There is not enough FAIL in the world to smash into fraac's face.

Photobucket

Hey dumbasses, this is how Buffy reacts to having her body violated!

And you know what, Helpless has disturbing similarities. Because Buffy has always wanted to be "normal", but when it's forced upon her by someone else, it's horrible. It's a betrayal. In Season 8, Buffy wants to be "happy" and for the longest time she'd wanted to be with Angel... but not like that. Not after what he'd done to her all season. So to have Buffy react happily to this bullshit...

I WANT TO SMASH FACES.
Edited 2010-05-28 21:23 (UTC)
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[identity profile] flake-sake.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Seems the thread is closed for comments now. Great. A good article with an ok discussion and it's get closed on some rape fans douchebaggery.

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:26 pm (UTC)(link)
What baffles me beyond even my anger is that this person cannot understand the difference between a fictional character and a real person. WHAT.

I am so, so glad you got your "What" in. By that point I knew I couldn't say anything: my mind was just red-hot anger.

Though... I don't like that it was closed without any word on the matter. That's one of the most offensive things I've ever read on Whedonesque.

Agreed.

Yeah, I like that parallel with "Helpless." It's such a profound betrayal.

ME TOO. AND STAB STAB STAB.
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[identity profile] flake-sake.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Yep, saw that it was closed too and so much word to smashing faces!

I can't believe that it was closed without any comment, I hope that fraac person gets banned at least.

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I pretty much had already had to bow out of that one: I'd read the "Phasers set on snark" phase quite a few comments back and right after that is blinding rage.

But I am glad that Simon (I assume) closed down the thread. I just wish there was a final word posted on there about how completely and totally inappropriate that was.

[identity profile] anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:35 pm (UTC)(link)


WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:36 pm (UTC)(link)
TODAY I HATE PEOPLE.

But love Britta.

[identity profile] anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:38 pm (UTC)(link)
sounds like an average day in my world.

OT: we went to persephone two days ago (TWO DAYS AGO GOD). one day you and izi and i will hang out and the world will explode.
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[identity profile] flake-sake.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh and look, since no more posting was possible he managed to make an edit about how people who talk about rape are abusive!

edit: In my world I see happy girls every day surrounded with 'friends' trying to convince them that they are victims and are crazy. I know who the abusers are and whose side I'm on. This is why I love Joss. That's all I'm saying.

KILL!KILL!KILL!


Edited 2010-05-28 21:41 (UTC)

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Depressingly so. It just all came to a head today.

THAT IS SO AWESOME. I remember taking izi there for the first time and it being so exciting! I still get the catalogue! It's still my dream workplace! I am so glad you had an awesome time.

And yes. We will. The universe cannot bear up under such awesomeness.

[identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I'm pleased he put up a comment.

KIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLL.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 09:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Simon posted in the thread and fraac's been suspended (though not banned). I'm frankly a bit perturbed at the implication that when he reopens the thread tomorrow anyone posting will be playing "silly sods". I take that as an implication against what you were doing and... NO. JUST NO.

I hope he just meant fraac but it doesn't read that way.

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