lirazel | A quick follow-up post

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A quick follow-up post

So, the consensus on my last post seems to be that I should try Torchwood first (and then West Wing! Yes, I'll get to that! Back off! ;p).

madcap_shiny has suggested such a heterodox move that it makes my chronology- and continuity-loving heart tremble:

Watch S2 first.

Now, her reasoning for this is that S1 really is really bad and that I won't really like it till S2 and that by watching S2 without the bad taste of S1 in my mouth, I'll enjoy the whole thing a whole lot more.

I trust her, but the idea of this petrifies me. But what think you, flist? Is this wisdom or folly?

I just want to take this opportunity to say that for some reason, I love it when people tell me which characters/pairings I'm gonna love on a TV show before I watch it. Y'all are almost always right, and it fills me with glee. The predictions for TW thus far are: Owen and Tosh. I suspect this will be proved correct. :D My personal hypothesis is that I will continue to not be a fan of Jack and might even like him less after this show.

Also, to those of you--whoever you are--who wrote me love notes for the meme, y'all are awesome and adorable and creative and wonderful. I adore you.

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Haha, I didn't even know people hated the first season? So my opinion is invalid here. (I need to talk to Kyrie and find out what was so bad about it.)

But I enjoyed watching from the beginning if that counts for any. I think watching the second would result in some confusion because everything is set up in the first.

Then you might hate the first season so IDK IDK.

I don't know, either! I am so torn! People I trust are saying different things! It's so distressing! Y'all should all come to a consensus on everything and make my decisions for me!

MAY, THEY'RE HATING ON THE FIRST SERIES, WTH?!

I'm pretty sure you'll agree with me that starting at the beginning is necessary. Otherwise you'll miss Mary! And Countrycide! And Lisa! And Dianne...

And, just, yes...

I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT WAS A THING LOL.

And exactly. ALSO SUZIE COSTELLO. There's just lots of references that wouldn't work if you hadn't seen it. I watched both series back to back over two weeks an age ago so maybe my memory is fuzzy, but I don't remember it being at all horrendous.

oh my gosh, SUZIE COSTELLO.

THAT IS REASON ENOUGH.

(it wasn't! or maybe I'm just too in love with it and the characters to notice? everyone says it took itself too seriously, but I really, really don't remember that. they have a pterodactyl named Myfanwy!)

Edited 2010-05-23 13:00 (UTC)

IDK IDK YOU HAVE SUMMED UP MY FEELINGS ON ALL THIS CORRECTLY SO I DO NOT KNOW WHAT ELSE TO OFFER. Perhaps you could cherry-pick a few s1 eps and then watch s2?

(ETA: ALSO HURRAH TURCHWAD GETS ITS OWN TAG)

Edited 2010-05-23 02:37 (UTC)

KYRIE KYRIE I TRUST YOU BUT THIS SCARES ME. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DOOOOO.

(It does! And I haven't ever seen it called that before, and it made me lol.)

WAIT FOR MORE OPINIONS ON THIS MOST? THEN AGAIN THAT MAY FURTHER THE COMPLICATEDNESS. I DON'T KNOW.

(Hee. It is from a now-infamous fic by

sam_storyteller where lolcats invaded the Hub. It was fairly fantastic.)

I THINK I'LL WAIT AND SEE.

(I will probably have to get you to link me to that once I've seen it...)

GURL, WHY DO YOU HATE THE FIRST SEASON?

HATE IS A STRONG WORD. I BEAR AFFECTION FOR IT. I just feel that it is, quality-wise...bad. IDK, I have not in truth seen every episode of it yet (I KNOW I KNOW OMG SECRET FANDOM SHAME), but the following is sort of my feel:

a) the writers do not so much have a good handle on the characters at all. Uuugh, Owen, I love your s2-self, but why you gotta be a grody pseudo-rapist in the first season? And Gwen, omg, you are my bb girl always, but what is with the cheating and asking your SO to forgive you and then retconning him to forget it anyway? I could go on but basically I just feel the showrunners didn't have half the grasp they do on everybody later on. (Plus there is kind of a frequent case of Dumb For the Sake of the Plot? I don't have examples off the top of my head for this, but it is just another ~feeling~ I have. I JUST HAVE A LOT OF THOSE)

b) it's so OVER-THE-TOP DRAMATIC sdajslfa;;;;;; I mean okay, Torchwood has always been both dark and cracktastic and I love that, but there is a line between that and unintended comedy. And they cross it. And then go back and jump on it just for good measure.

SO THOSE ARE MY (ADMITTEDLY BASED ON LIMITED KNOWLEDGE) REASONS AS TO WHY THE FIRST SERIES IS NOT QUITE UP TO PAR.

Not to be a comment creeper but YES THIS THIS SO MUCH. I LEGIT CANNOT STAND GWEN IN THE FIRST SEASON BECAUSE I LOVE RHYS SO MUCH AND SHE'S SUCH AN INFORMED ABILITY AND IS AWFUL TO HIM. This is relatively remedied in S2.

Feelings, I have them.

OMG IZI FOR REAL. I LOVE GWEN, BUT I ALSO LOVE RHYS, AND WHAT SHE DID TO HIM WAS PRETTY BAD, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE WRITERS' ATTEMPTS TO SELL HER AS THE MORAL CORE OF THE SHOW. Much like everything else, their relationship (and Gwen as the moral core!) in s2 is vastly improved, I feel. Also, I love their interaction in COE.

The predictions for TW thus far are: Owen and Tosh.

I agree with this, mostly because that's who I liked - although I hated Owen in S1 (okay, I hated everybody in S1, but especially Jack, Gwen, and Owen), but I liked him more in S2. I think you might also like later Gwen.

I also predict you will love Captain John. I have no idea what makes me think that. *g*

ETA: Oh, and re the watch in order or not question, I'd say maybe watch the first episode and the last episode of S1 and then skip to S2. (I say this having only watched the show once through, and that was a good while ago, but I'd say if there's anything important you need to know about S1, it happens in the beginning and the end.)

Edited 2010-05-23 02:55 (UTC)

I have heard that Owen's kind of horrible in S1. I tend to like the Strong Female Characters that the rest of fandom hates (except that fandom loves Kara Thrace, and I don't--what's up with that?), so I imagine later Gwen will grow on me as well.

It's weird going into this knowing so much about the characters through fandom osmosis.

What could possibly make you think that? ;p

[eta] I think your suggestion might be a good one. I'll ponder it.

Edited 2010-05-23 02:56 (UTC)

I tend to like the Strong Female Characters that the rest of fandom hates

Ooh, who else do you like? (I'm assuming Buffy is one, lol.)

Yup, definitely Buffy. I also love all of the Companions on Nu!Who, which I think puts me in the minority (even if I think the writing for all of them isn't equally strong, I like them all). I like Uhura on nu!Trek (she's very polarizing). I like all of the women on Mad Men--there's a lot of Betty hate, but I think she's interesting and oftentimes sympathetic, if deeply flawed. I like Michelle on Skins, who isn't generally well-liked.

Of course, then I also like the characters everyone else loves--I'm now very fond of Scully and Aeryn Sun, for instance.

I suddenly have a desire to get you the Joan and Betty Barbies. If I had a million dollars, that would so go on my list.

as would an EnverBot. How much does an EnverBot cost? And was it you or Emmie who was gonna do the post-Chosen BtVS-Dollhouse crossover where Buffy commissions Victor to be imprinted with Spike after he dies? Can Adelle do something randomly nice and tell her to go sign an agreement with Rossum's lawyers, who just happen to be Wolfram & Hart, in the epilogue?

Hee! I like all of the Companions, too - but I like Rose the least and Donna the best (though Amy is really competing for the title), which I think also puts me in the minority.

I... kind of hate Betty, though. And the other peeps I've never seen, so I can't offer opinions.

OH UM YEAH THE THING ABOUT GWEN. She is the Hated Girl in TW fandom, full-stop, to wtfican'teven levels. (SPOILER ALERT: I LOVE HER.)

Yeah, I am well aware of the Gwen hate, unfortunately. I feel like I'd go into this more disposed to liking her since everyone else hates her!

Yeah, I think this is definitely wisdom. S1 is terrible. Although I may not be the best one to ask as I didn't like S2 that much better. I only really love the S3 miniseries.

Ha! Yeah, I definitely expect to find S1 terrible. But I think S2 might be worth checking out for the sake of greater fandom knowledge and also because I'm really, really looking forward to the miniseries.

She is completely correct. Season 1 took itself way too seriously while being simultaneously ridiculous. Season 2 realized it was crack and was way, way better.

That might be the best description of Torchwood that I have ever read. *loves you*

I love it when people tell me which characters/pairings I'm gonna love on a TV show before I watch it.

Oh man, same. Except I generally have less luck in that department :(

NO! NO NO NO!

DON'T DO THAT!

You absolutely need to watch S1 first, I am not even kidding! It is not bad - yes, it is not as good, but it is still brilliant!

Ohgosh, please please please start at the beginning....♥

Actually, I feel really strongly about this. It is my SHOW and I take it way more seriously than anything else possibly ever...(ohgosh).

But, no, you really do have to watch S1 first. It is excellent. I don't understand the dislike. In order to really love this show, you have to grow with its characters and see how they get from one place to another. There are things that happen in S1 that play a huge part in the rest of the show. You need to understand who Jack is now; a completely different person than he was when he was with the Doctor. You need to meet his team and understand how lonely and lost they all are before they find a place with each other.

Episodes like 'Cyberwoman' and 'Countrycide' and 'Out of Time', not to mention 'Captain Jack Harkness' are full of such major character development. The sort of episodes that made me care so deeply for these characters that they are still my favourites and this is still my show (even if it keeps breaking my heart).

And it is wonderful. I love it with a rather fiery passion. And, even if people tell you it's not great? It's still better than most things on TV ever.

In fact, I only watched TW because BSG finished and I was jonesing for some SciFi. And I knew that James Marsters was going to show up eventually.

But Torchwood is cheese-tastic. John Barrowman is way over-the-top as Captain Jack. Gwen ... I don't know about her. Is she supposed to be a sympathetic character? Because it's not working. Owen is unpleasant and looks like a toad. Tosh is a zero. And the thing that really escapes me is the Ianto the Male Receptionist. He has absolutely zero personality for most of Season 1, and then the one time he has a major role to play, he overacts like crazy.

Season 2 is much better. Ep 1, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is fantastic. Having James Marsters around balances the show--until he arrived, it didn't have a character as charismatic as John Barrowman, so most of the team came across as pale shadows--real also-rans.

I should have read your comment before I posted mine, 'cause this - so much!

(It is *ridiculous* how much I love my show. Esp considering how it broke my heart more than anything else ever...)

I just remember sitting down and watching the very first episode when it aired and waiting week by week for it, and my love for it hasn't diminished since. I wonder if the people who don't like it watched it later, on DVD or once it was all out? I don't know, I just can't imagine not watching the first series.

I'm so protective of these characters; I could literally write essays about why they are the way the are, and their relationships.

I just...not watching the first series of any show confuses me; even if it's not as good as later series, surely you need to understand the characters and the history?

I'm so glad you agree! ♥

Edited 2010-05-23 13:02 (UTC)

See me, I didn't fall in love immediately. I watched it because I was curious about Jack, but the unevenness of the writing was quite offputting. And yet - I could always see the *potential* (which was one reason I was grumpy, since it wasn't being fulfilled), and so I was always thrilled when something worked. Also, of course, there was Jack/Ianto which sucked me in as if it had been written just. for. me. And finally there was fic. Glorious, gorgeous, beautifully written fic, and I never wanted to stop reading it.

So I think that the world and the characters drew me in, despite all the obvious shortcomings. And yes, I too am very protective. The characters are my gorgeous, broken toys, and I want to scoop them all up and never let them go.

Edited 2010-05-23 19:56 (UTC)

Watch S2 first.
No. And not just because I'm a canon and continuity whore (although that plays a part too). First off, I agree that S1 is the weakest overall, and wildly uneven. But.

1. One reason S1 was such a drag first time round was because Jack was a big question mark. Why was he immortal? Why was he on Earth? Why was he so full of angst? Etc. We didn't find out until he then appeared on DW, but since you already know, it should make things a lot more palatable.

2. Continuity. There's a TON of stuff you won't appreciate in S2 if you've not first seen S1. Just... imagine doing the same with Buffy, and not having seen 'Prophecy Girl' or not know who Darla is when she shows up in flashbacks...

3. It's not a bad thing to start out with something that's not great and then watch it become better and better. Seriously. Because everyone starts out all fucked up, and then slowly re-gain their grasp on life and each other. It's... it's like starting with S6, and a ton of angst, and then everything gets better. :)

And - that's all for now. Gotta go wake the family. And I'm trying very hard not to go 'SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE you're going to watch Torchwood!!!eleventy!!!', 'cause I love that show to absolute distraction, despite/because of the angst and the crack and the total ridiculousness. ♥

i would say watch the pilot and then watch s2. that is generally an excellent suggestion (that's what i did). s2 is ridiculous but kind of a good ridiculous. ships you may love. i hope you will love. that show does otps well.

You should definitely watch season 1 first. Okay, it's mostly bad - mainly because it takes itself too seriously - but there are a couple of good episodes and some so bad that they're good.

Honestly, I pushed myself through s1, and I only enjoyed parts of it--it was just all over the place. I watched the first half of s2 before I quit, but at least then the characterizations were getting a little more even? Everyone I've talked to has told me that I quit right before it got amazing, but s1 just made me too over the show to enjoy any s2 improvements, let along to give it another go.

As for Jack...um, yeah. I like DW!Jack, but TW!Jack is just sort of. Urk. And. I'd probably better let you watch and decide for yourself :\ :p Tosh and Owen are cute, though! :D?

I'd say watch the pilot (and perhaps S1 finale if you're nervous) but then move on to S2. Seriously. So many issues with this show. I mean I love it, but S1 is all over the place. ALL OVER THE PLACE. IN A BAD WAY. S2 is all over the place but in a good way, and there's plenty of gay and of awesome backstory.

Also, Children of Earth? First three episode are the most glorious three hours this show has ever done. BUT MY FEELINGS ON THE OTHER TWO ARE SO CLOUDED BY PAIN STILL. But watch it. It's so entirely worth it.

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A quick follow-up post

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I love Buffy; I only tolerate Torchwood

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