Sexuality, Consent, and the Buffyverse

[lirazel]

A comment over on the website-which-shall-not-be-named got me thinking.

Here it is:

It is horrid but their sex brought on the end of the world so it was never meant to be a positive development. It’s already happened to her once before in Where the Wild Things Are when something urged Buffy and Riley on and they were turned into mindless sex zombies who had "no control over themselves." This time it's only has larger and more disastrous consequences.

It may be squicky but I’d still prefer that story to a story where Buffy knowingly jumped the bones of Twangel and didn’t care that the world started crumbling down around her.

There are about seventy places I could go with this (like, how very, very much I hate WtWTA), but what I really want to get to is this:

Why does questionable sex have to be at the heart of this at all? I hated WtWTA; I hate this. I'm so incredibly over Joss's whole SEX LEADS TO BADNESS thing. And reducing the entire plot of the season to Who Buffy Boinks...seriously?

So let’s talk about consent and sexual punishment in the Buffyverse. I don’t have any deep insights into it; I haven’t really done enough thinking about it for that. But I would like to start up some conversations about it.

And it’s all gonna be behind a cut for the sake of mollivanders, as not to spoil her, and for the sake of the portion of my flist that could care less about my natterings about BtVS


1. Rape. And attempted rape. There’s lots of it on the show. More than you’d likely think. These are the ones that came to mind:
A. Hyena!Xander tries to rape Buffy, pretends he doesn’t remember doing so after he’s no longer possessed
B. Angel(us) rapes the Romani girl he kills; it’s strongly implied (I believe? It’s been a while since I’ve seen it) that rape was part of the torture he and Darla used to break Drusilla (as was slaughtering her entire family. Hey! I wrote fic about that!).
C. Faith tries to rape Xander in “Consequences”
D. Faith does rape Riley in “Who Are You?”*
E. Buffy and Riley are taken over by a poltergeist thing and made to have sex for hours
F. Willow rapes Tara by altering her mind with magic.**
G. Spike attempts to rape Buffy (and later heavily implies that he raped others pre-soul)
H. The Universe makes Buffy and Angel have sex; how much of it was their choice is very, very, very unclear
I. Katrina. Warren completely controls her mind and attempts to rape her.
J. As this has no real-life equivalent, it's murky, but you can definitely argue that by having sex in Buffy's body, Faith is raping Buffy as well.
K. Buffy keeps going after Spike tells her to stop in "Gone." Spike keeps going after Buffy tells him to stop in "Wrecked." Repeat ad nauseum.
L. Angel(us) rapes Holtz's wife. "Repeatedly."
M. Cordy is possessed when she has sex with Connor--how much of that was Cordy and how much of it was Jasmine is entirely subjective and unclear.
N. Angelus threatens to rape both Fred and Buffy; he tells Lilah he'll "rape [her] to death": his modus operandi seems to be the threat of sexualized violence.
O. The Slayer's power was forced on her by a group of powerful men without her consent in one of the skeeviest of rape metaphors. Then they threaten to do the same to Buffy in "Get It Done," adding some absolutely appalling racist overtones to the whole thing.
P. "In Epiphany Cordelia is held down by the Skilosh demons, screaming "no, no" while a phallic-shaped object protruding from one of the demon's mouths, is forced into the back of her head to "impregnate" her with the Skilosh "young" (the creepy, icky third eye) - all this while her menfolk are racing to save her. I swear, I get so damned uncomfortable watching that scene - if it weren't the back of her head, but lower down her torso, it wouldn't even be a question of whether she was raped. She was." - samsom
Q. "Also, I consider her encounter with Wilson Christopher to be rape because he was acting as a 'substitute' or conduit for the demon that impregnated her - both without her knowledge or consent." - samsom
R. "I'd include Angel throwing Darla through and glass door, pushing her onto his bed on a rape list. While she wasn't fighting him the way Buffy fought Spike, it wasn't totally consentual either; she looked scared after he threw her through that glass door."> - menomegirl
S. In "Go Fish," the swim team captain comes on to Buffy several times, she tries to defend herself, and she is victim blamed by Snyder. (suggested by scarfman)
T. Angel and Eve have sex while under the influence of whatever's wrong with Lorne in "Life of the Party" (that's the episode title, right?). We have every reason to believe that Angel would not choose to have sex with her if he weren't under that influence. This is played for laughs.
U. via sockmoneyhere on Spider and Spike in IDW's comics: "Having taken a fancy to Spike, she 'visits' him in the cell: crawls onto his lap, forces a kiss on his mouth, unzips his pants, and demands that he get an erection so that she can mount him. He's both drawn and written as showing disgust, and tries to kick her away. He asks her to help his suffering human companions, and she scoffs that they're dead already. He demands to know if Fred is all right, and Spider pouts, 'Stop thinking about her! Think about ME!'" More here.

More wonky consent, suggested by prophecygirrl and local_max:

V. "Him" - All of the women are completely overtaken with love for RJ because of his stupid lettermen's jacket (that is just a dumb metaphor. There's some super-funny parts of this episode, but seriously?). Buffy either ends up having sex with him or almost ends up having sex with him. Shady consent. Plus: teacher/student relationships have such an inherent power imbalance, especially in high school situations, that the consent was shady from the other direction as well.
V. Buffy and Spike in "Something Blue"--they definitely wouldn't be kissing each other under other circumstances; it's played for laughs.
X. "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" - All of the women are completely overtaken with love for Xander because of his spell backfiring. Thankfully, no actual sex happens, but Buffy and Willow both come on to him. Shadiness abounds.
Y. Times when sex isn't the point, but mind-control is played for laughs and then physical intimacy enters the equation. None of these are particularly horrible in and of themselves. i) Joyce and Giles in "Band Candy." ii) Giles and Anya could have ended up doing much more than kiss in "Tabula Rasa." iii) "You could (I don't think I would--but pattern) argue that people being swept up with the emotion of the OMWF spell constitute some tricky consent stuff. (We only know about Willow/Tara, which has other issues.)" - local_max (I agree. I probably wouldn't argue that last one, though I'm including it here.)



*I’m not arguing about this one. We have every reason to believe that if Riley had known that was Faith, he wouldn’t have slept with her. By withholding such vital information, it negates consent. Yes, that was rape. If you want to argue about this, do it elsewhere—not in my journal.
**Once again, I’m not arguing about this. Not only is the magic clearly a metaphor for “date-rape” drugs, but, again, we have every reason to believe Tara would have refused sex (out of anger at Willow) had Willow not used the magic. That was rape, too. Again: if you want to argue about this do it elsewhere—not in my journal.

It’s entirely possible I’m forgetting something. Surely there’s something on AtS? I’d be shocked if there wasn’t.

So what we see is lots of issues of rape or shady consent (WtWTA). And how many of them are taken seriously? Well, “Seeing Red” certainly is. A lot of people have problems with it (including me—I don’t have a problem with it from the perspective of Spike’s story, but I do from Buffy’s: it makes her a victim and reduces her story to something to serve Spike’s story, and on a feminist show that’s All About Buffy, this is problematic) and think it could be handled better in the aftermath (including me), but there’s never any doubt that this is both Bad and a Major Thing.

The rapes of Dru and the Romani girl are there to show how bad Angelus is and to show why Angel needs a soul. Since they take place in the past, there isn’t a whole lot of delving into them, though I think that both Dru’s mental fragile state forever after and the Romani’s commitment to watching Angel prove that those instances are taken pretty seriously.

But I really don’t think Willow ever realizes just why Tara is upset; I really don’t think she ever realizes it’s rape. So I have a lot of problems with the writers having Tara go back to her. I’m pretty sure that Faith’s treatment of Xander is never mentioned again and her treatment of Riley isn’t really examined, either. Hyena!Xander is mentioned again, and yes: there really were extenuating circumstances, but nothing? Really?

As for Space Sex, we have yet to see how it’s gonna be handled, but I don’t have much hope at this point.

2. Sex Leads to Badness. Now, some of these work quite well, plot-wise. I don’t have a problem with most of them on their own; it’s only when they’re located within the context of all the others that they become problematic. So don’t tell me about how awesome the Angelus plotline in S2 is; I think so, too. I’m not talking about isolated incidents: I’m talking about the pattern of the show(s). And I’m listing these in the order they come to mind.
A. Buffy sleeps with Angel; he loses his soul, becomes evil, terrorizes Sunnydale, kills Jenny Calendar (sob!) and Willow’s fish, then Buffy has to send him to hell.
B. Buffy sleeps with Parker and is used by him. (And gets her revenge by going all Cave!Buffy on him in a scene of awesome.)
C. Buffy sleeps with Spike, becomes even more self-loathing, beats him in an alley, then he nearly rapes her. The cause and effect doesn’t have to be there, and obviously, Buffy is a complete victim and nothing she did caused the rape. Still, there are enough people who feel like something she did led to the AR that I feel comfortable with having it on this list. Also, rough sex is depicted as something only bad people do, something Buffy would never, ever do while in her right mind. There's the (really, when you think about it, quite horrifying) "Tell me I'm bad" scene with Tara. prophecygirrl has more on that here
D. Buffy sleeps with Angel, causes earthquakes, tsunamis, and horrible loss of life on earth. Also: ascends to a higher plane, then comes back within one issue. WHAT.
Compare this to: Buffy has sex with Riley; their relationship ends as most relationships do (except that in this case the guy acts like a horrible passive-aggressive douchebag before he leaves. I recently rewatched “Into the Woods” and am bitter). There's loads of bad things going on with their breakup parallatic talks way more about this here and pretty much sums up my feelings, but there's no literal repercussions, so we'll be generous and put this in the "good" column. Buffy has sex with Satsu; it’s depicted that she enjoys it, but everyone is very quick to reassure each other and the audience that she’s not at all gay. *eyeroll* 4 out of her 6 sexual relationship have negative consequences beyond just the “We eventually break up” variety. That’s 2/3, right, mathly people?
E. Xander sleeps with Faith; she later tries to rape him. (It’s been a loooooong time since I’ve watched S3, so this isn’t quite clear in my mind. I reread transcripts, but that’s not quite the same as watching the episode. Any elucidation would be appreciated.)
F. Veruca sleeps with Oz, gets torn apart. Literally.
G. Tara sleeps with Willow; Willow rapes her to keep her sleeping with her. (Uh, pronoun stuff going on there.)
H. Tara sleeps with Willow (without resolving the earlier rape issues) and is murdered by Warren. (In an interesting have-sex-and-then-die moment much like the very horror movie tropes Joss claims to subvert.)
I. Cordelia sleeps with that random guy, gets supernaturally pregnant. So do a bunch of other women.
J. Darla sleeps with Angel, gets pregnant, then must sacrifice herself for her child in a very Motherhood Will Save Her kind of moment.
K. Cordelia sleeps with Connor, gives birth to Jasmine, goes into a coma, “comes back” for the space of an episode to “get her guy back on track,” then dies.
L. Anya gleefully and healthily embraces her sexuality and is constantly told to be more appropriate because it makes those around her nervous and/or uncomfortable. (Yes, I think there’s a time and place to talk about sex and Anya needs to learn that. But this is within the pattern/context of the show.)
M. Giles and Jenny are about to consummate their relationship and OH GUESS WHAT SHE’S DEAD AND LAID OUT ON YOUR BED, GILES. (I’m still bitter about this.)
N. "Dawn doesn't sleep with Kenny - she sleeps with his roommate (because her feelings for Kenny were too intense and so it's less pressure to sleep with his roommate - IDEK) and then Kenny gets pissed and curses her." - from eowyn_315 So this guy punishes her by turning her into a centaur, a giant, and a doll. WHAT.
O. Dawn's first kiss turns out to be a vampire and she has to stake him.
P. The frat boys in "Selfless" are vengenced by Anya after (if I remember correctly) humiliating some girls.
Q. Katrina breaks up with Warren; he mind-controls her; he attempts to rape her; she dies.
R. Xander and Ms. French in "Teacher's Pet." Sex was going to involve having his head bit off. Yeah.
S. Xander making jokes about bondage in "Him"...and then he is tied up, but not for fun: his date goes after him with a knife.


I’m fairly sure there’s more. Anything you can remember, let me know: I’ll add it to the list.

Then there’s a pregnancy metaphor dealing with bodily autonomy in which Fred’s body (and it has to be a woman, doesn’t it?) is taken over by an entirely different entity which kills her and destroys her soul. (Really, Joss? Her soul?) “A Hole in the World” is a well-written episode with some great moments (Spike’s little speech in the Deeper Well is one of my favorite moments on the show), but there’s some annoying stuff going on here: she’s the only woman left, and all the menfolk stand around her bedside and then decide They. Must. Save. Her! Not to mention that she’s just entered a romantic relationship and that she seems to have lost her personality in S5 and is just there to serve the stories of men (Wes and Spike, in particular). Something about the whole thing just skeeves me out. More about that here and here (for some reason, the filter at my work has blocked this, but I remember it being really awesome).

Plus, Joss doesn't really handle pregnancy in all its complexity. I was just talking with xlivvielockex about Charisma Carpenter (among other things), and she said, "Not to mention S4 and Expecting seemed very...anti-pregnancy to me." Yeah. Anti-pregnancy without realizing the complexity of the situation for a woman. He's looking at it from a privileged position, just like he's looking at prostitution from a privileged position on Firefly and Dollhouse, and he seems completely unaware of it. But that's a whole 'nother issue. For way more of her thoughts on pregnancy, see the comment here--it's quite excellent.

I really don’t know where I’m going with this. I just know that seeing 34/35 of the S8 comics made my stomach sink: more questionable consent? More Sex Is Bad-ness? Do we really need that? Does the entirety of the plot for S8 really need to be reduced to the Universe wanting Buffy and Angel to have sex? Really? I’m not a fan of Shag or Die in fanfic (except for botias’s Persephone, but there are exceptions to every rule, right?), much less in canon, and the whole thing feels unnecessary. Do we really need another plotline boiled down to Who Buffy’s Boinking?

Making it worse, we have confirmation that 34 for was the first installment all plotted out and that everything was building up to that (as this is the case, it makes the pacing of the season even worse and even more nonsensical, doesn’t it?). The whole thing makes me headdesk. (Who's got a link for this interview? Help me out, please.)

I want to know what y’all think. I know there are some positive depictions of sex on the show and and that just showing women embracing their sexuality was new and different for TV when the show as on the air. But I don’t know. I just feel sick of all this stuff, and I want to have a dialogue with y’all about it. Share your thoughts. Let me know what you think.

But do not argue with me about what constitutes rape above (I don’t expect this from my flist, but who knows who’ll wander in here) and do not try to defend these things in isolation. I’m looking at patterns and context. That’s what we’re talking about. If you want to talk about those things go somewhere else. I’ll give you a warning, then delete your comment if you don’t listen. Okay? Okay!

Comments

[next_to_normal]

This is where I need some help because I’m not entirely clear on this: Dawn sleeps with this Kenny guy (or at least dates him), then either breaks up with him or cheats on him. Not sure which. He then puts a curse on her, punishing her by having her turn into a centaur, a giant, and a doll. WHAT.

Not quite. Dawn doesn't sleep with Kenny - she sleeps with his roommate (because her feelings for Kenny were too intense and so it's less pressure to sleep with his roommate - IDEK) and then Kenny gets pissed and curses her.

I will probably have more thoughts, but I need to mull a bit, I think. Just seeing it all listed out like that is somewhat horrifying, though.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm gonna copy/paste that. [eta] And that's actually worse than I thought--worse and stupid and ridiculous.

And I look forward to your thoughts. I'm mulling myself. It's...sobering, isn't it?

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

No argument from me about any of these examples. Just to add a couple of other ones: "Him", "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered", Anya's vengeance on the frat boys who (I believe?) raped (or was it "just" molested and humiliated"?) those girls in "Selfless" and even poor Dawn's "First Date" which turned out to be a vampire. Lots of dialog there is just...creepy.

It's the same thing that I felt while watching Dollhouse. All of it is one giant rape metaphor, and I was feeling completely overwhelmed and beleaguered watching it week after week. Even in the last episode, which should have been a resolution and denial of those themes, had Echo strapped to a gurney and getting raped by 11 syringes -- God, enough!

Honestly, after a while, it stops bearing any semblance of a feminist statement and starts being a violation of the viewer. And that is a very, very strange thing to have typed, but it does feel that way.

I don't know how I feel reading between the lines on this to point at any one person's attitudes, so I'll make it general. Maybe it simply points to a deep rooted and unconscious ambivalence about actually giving women the power that they know intellectually, and morally, they are entitled to. I hate to think that, and I'll be looking here hard for alternative viewpoints.

Because this is the source of some of my deepest ambivalence about the Jossverse. And when it is repeated this often, the significance is undeniable.

Thanks for forcing me to take a closer look at it.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

OH HIM. I forgot about that episode, probably because the only part I watch is the rocket launcher and Willow and Anya arguing because that is hilarious. The rest is gross.

I think the frat boys weren't molesting--they were just humiliating.

I can totally see where you're coming from with DH. Totally.

Maybe it simply points to a deep rooted and unconscious ambivalence about actually giving women the power that they know intellectually, and morally, they are entitled to. I hate to think that, and I'll be looking here hard for alternative viewpoints.
Yes. Yes indeed.

You're welcome. I hate that I had to do this, but I felt like it needed to be done.

I'm gonna add your suggestions to the list.

[mollivanders.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the cut dear! I can talk sexuality through Season 4 but I'm sure there are spoilers beyond that in your post so hopefully we can just have a sub-discussion here? :)

Wild at Heart was a sad episode for me, not because sex leads to bad but because it focused about the animal inside Oz and how he wasn't entirely in control of himself (or that he gave into his 'baser' urges, if we want to label them that, which I'm not entirely on board with). It was sad because he didn't want to cheat on Willow but the animal inside him want (and like Faith, it became a see, want, take cycle). In contrast, his relationship/sex with Willow was very healthy and paced and naturally developed. And like with Buffy and Angel, when Oz returned he found the one thing that brought the animal out in him was Willow, which falls under the ironic category in his book :(

I don't know if it's a commentary on sex --> bad or if Joss is creating a structure where the thing we want most is the thing we can't have because the cost to the rest of the world is too great, and we lose the thing we want by taking it. It's depressing but sex, in this context, isn't about bad - it's about loss, which I think is a valid way to talk about sex and relationships; it's just going to be a very short-lived and angsty relationship.

That said, Buffy and Riley. Omg. I'll talk about this more later in my S4 post but I didn't understand, first of all, why if they stopped having sex in Where the Wild Things Are, they would die. It seemed very constructed whereas I think they just wouldn't want to ever stop having sex. And in that episode, as well, the poltergeist came out of a repression of sexuality and sex that, through the repression, turned malicious.

Consent though... that's a tricky one. I've heard Spike tries to rape Buffy at one point and tbh, this is where my revulsion of the idea of him and Buffy comes from in advance. Spike being evil, and Angelus being evil, both committed horrible acts against Buffy, Drusilla, and of course all their victims. And I guess I'm going to just have to see how Joss deals with that and hope I don't want to throw things at Spike after he tries to attack Buffy for the rest of the season because rape is too often used as a plot device in television and movies (e.g. 300, The Usual Suspects) and it's the debasement of the woman for the purpose of giving another character a motivation that angers me.

I'm getting off track here, but there's one more thing I'd like to add. Inara is, of course, a Companion. A highly respected woman in society who sells herself for sex. Now regardless of whether prostitution is 'good' or 'bad' (which I think comes from a view of sex as bad and thus to profit off it even worse, a view I take issue with), Inara is an empowered woman. But she's also limited in a way I won't spoil you with in case you didn't see that Comic Con video. Kaylee, on the other hand, is a young, happy, woman who gets turned on by engines. And she's not dis-empowered at all by that. Joss does make her a rape target in 'Objects in Space' which I think is meant to show us the evil of Early, but she does manage to face that fear and do what she needs to do.

I feel like this is getting off target, but maybe in Buffy the 'Who Buffy Boinks' issue presents later in the series and less so in the earlier seasons? It is significant to me, though, that after she sleeps with Angel and he becomes Angelus, Giles makes a point to say she may have acted rashly, but he doesn't blame her for what happened, and all she will get is his support and his respect. And at the end of the day, whether things happen in response to Buffy's actions, she's still the one with the power.

I think I'm done now :)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I don't really know how much of a conversation we can have about this at this point, to be honest. There's so much that happens later, that happens in the comics, that happens on AtS. How much of this did you read?

Where the Wild Things Are is stupid and infuriating. I have nothing further to say.

I don't know if it's a commentary on sex --> bad or if Joss is creating a structure where the thing we want most is the thing we can't have because the cost to the rest of the world is too great, and we lose the thing we want by taking it. It's depressing but sex, in this context, isn't about bad - it's about loss, which I think is a valid way to talk about sex and relationships; it's just going to be a very short-lived and angsty relationship.
I see what you're saying, but there's enough problematic content that I can't simply look at it like that. Joss is very unaware of his privilege and just think he doesn't think about these things.

And yeah, we absolutely can't talk about the Spike thing right now. I kind of hate that someone told you that devoid of context. *sigh*

I have a bunch of problems with Inara, actually: for one thing, if she really was so empowered and if her position in society really was so accepted, someone wouldn't be shouting, "Whore!" all the time at her. And it's definitely not just Mal, although that's loathesome and kind of makes me want to not-ship them. But Joss just talks about prositution from a position of such privilege--he really doesn't talk about the nitty-gritty of it, all its complexities, etc. He just has this guy's fantasy about what a professional whore would be like. It's not a horrible portrayal, but it's profoundly lacking.

And I'm not fond of Kaylee in light of all the other female characters he has on literally every single one of his shows that are supposed to be all sunshine and rainbows and make everything okay for the men when they smile (Willow--to a lesser extent--, Fred, Kaylee, Mellie). But that's another issue.

It is significant to me, though, that after she sleeps with Angel and he becomes Angelus, Giles makes a point to say she may have acted rashly, but he doesn't blame her for what happened, and all she will get is his support and his respect. Agreed. That's really fantastic.

I don't know if you can really say that about her having the power. Because of stuff that happens later and because of how often the show likes to play around with consent issues and they affect her.

But you should totally come back later when you're through the show and up on the comics and we'll really tear it apart. :D

Thanks for your thoughts!

[quinara]

I feel like such a shit for not realising that Faith raped Riley. Because, yes.

Otherwise, I see the pattern you see. I'm not sure what to say about it apart from :( . Long before S8 started I'd concluded that Joss wasn't very good at feminism (in the sense of fully expunging his societally ingrained misogyny), so it hasn't been utterly surprising so much as depressing to see it come to such a head in S8.

To tangent: I think Buffy is a hero and the sort of figure a feminist world needs, but I don't think Buffy was a specifically feminist show. That we had a hero who was a woman was a feminist concept, and I was glad to see these issues being worked out with a female protagonist, but otherwise I didn't find the plotlines that were supposed to be about feminist triumph that triumphant, and too many other plotlines fell into dodgy territory. I have such love for Wishverse!Buffy, because for one episode we had a forthright woman who could be aggressive without being made to rely on her sexuality (compared with Faith, Veruca, Lilah (ish), Cordelia (ish - though note how, as she becomes fluffy and approachable, she stops wearing Cordy-style clothes; proof by inversion - is that a thing?) and, ooh, not evil like Maggie Walsh.

OK, this is a tangent squared, but I really can't stand it in the gift where Buffy saves that nerdboi, who's like 'but you're just a girl' and Buffy replies 'that's what I keep saying'. Because my Buffy would NEVER SAY THAT. (This would be representative of an issue with how Buffy has to be girlish and frivolous at the same time as she's the Slayer for a lot of the early seasons. Why? Give me Buffy who just blinks at Principal Wood and tells him what a bastinada is. Let her be witty and in control of her emotions. Maybe it says something to allow a loved up teengirl be a hero, but I'd just love a story where teengirls don't have to draw hearts on their notebooks and cry into their ice cream. Though that's probably personal preference than an actual feminism!fail.)

Um. I liked your post?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It took me a while, too. So I understand.

Long before S8 started I'd concluded that Joss wasn't very good at feminism (in the sense of fully expunging his societally ingrained misogyny Yes. I've recently gotten there myself. Completely.

Oh, yes, yes, yes to that second paragraph. YES.

Because my Buffy would NEVER SAY THAT. Yeah, that moment sacrificed characterization for the meta line.

I don't know about your last paragraph. I can see where you're coming from, but like: the first female character that I've really, really identified with in a long time is Annie from Being Human because she's very emotional (laughing and crying easily), and so am I. But she learns to be strong, to stand up for herself.

I guess it comes down to the fact that we need way, way more female role models, so that for the girls who are the crying in their ice cream types, they can look up to Buffy, and for the girls who hide their emotions and are fiercely independent, they have Kara Thrace, and for the girls who are "tomboy" types, they have...well, they should have someone. That way we don't have to put all the pressure on one woman to be representative of all women. Just like we need more characters of color so that every time a Korean woman shows up, she doesn't have to shoulder the burden of representing every Korean woman ever. You know?

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it! I hate that I had to make it, but....

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

Something similar to Twuffy: Joyce&Giles in Band Candy. They practically devolved to some younger and not caring selves.

I don't know, maybe you'll see something more into it.

Great post

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thank you! :D

[silverusagi]

Excellent post. I am very sick of the sex is bad message that seems to be all over the place in the show. Is it too much to ask for sex to just be sex once in a while?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Is it too much to ask for sex to just be sex once in a while?

YEEEEEEEES.

I think actually Xander and Anya's relationship mostly was just about sex. But it was kind of presented as something to be endlessly embarrassed by. Willow and Oz's relationship was pretty good. But that's flailing in a sea of massive FAIL!

[local-max.livejournal.com]

These aren't all things that bother me personally but in keeping with the pattern:

In addition to raping Riley, Faith raped Buffy by having sex with her body, with absolutely clear non-consent.

Giles & Anya may have done more than make out because of the Tabula Rasa spell.

You could (I don't think I would--but pattern) argue that people being swept up with the emotion of the OMWF spell constitute some tricky consent stuff. (We only know about Willow/Tara, which has other issues.)

Oz and Veruca as wolves. In fact you can argue any time vampires have sex they don't have their souls so are not offering full consent.

Buffy & Spike in "Gone" (he tells her to go away, she does--but only after going down on him). This doesn't bother me much in the context of their relationship, but, you know, patterns. Lots of cases of non-explicit consent (Smashed, Dead Things, As You Were also) on both sides leading up to "Seeing Red," but...well, their relationship is complicated.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Good ones. And I agree that most of those aren't particularly disturbing on their own, but it's all about the patterns here.

Although I don't think I'm gonna go with the souls thing. ;D I'll leave that off the list.

Thanks a lot for your contribution.

[diamondtook862.livejournal.com]

This is a good discussion! Thanks for bringing it up!

Don't forget that Angelus constantly threatens Buffy with rape for nearly half of season 2, and it's all the worse because he *knows* her (as it also is with Spike, but of course it was worse with Spike cause she trusted him not to hurt her, but with Angelus she expected violence from the moment she knew he'd changed). He draws those skeevy pictures of her when she's sleeping and most of their interactions have an implied sexual threat, I would argue.

Also on sex then bad stuff happens: right after Buffy's first time with Riley Maggie Walsh sees and tries to send her to her death (though ironically it sends her to her own death instead).

Interestingly, an article about this very subject (specifically the pregnancy/body-control issue) was one of the first things I read on the Internet when I first finished Buffy. It actually totally spoiled the Ilyria plotline for me, sadly. It is interesting seeing it know when I actually have some opinions/more familiarity with the shows.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I actually had forgotten that. Do you have any specific quotes about the rape threats? That would be super-helpful.

[madcap-shiny.livejournal.com]

OH JOSS. Seeing everything laid out this way makes me feel very very bitter and annoyed.

I don't know. I mean, I don't think he's totally enveloped in a place of Sex Is Bad, since Firefly, flawed and written from a privileged place though it is, never punished its women for having awesome sex. (Exploitation is another story ohmygod the gratuitous 'let's have girl-on-girl because that's super hot' in War Stories. I mean, I think exploring Inara's job as a Companion with a female client could be totally interesting, but the way it was handled was very "look at the gorgeous women giving each other massages." aaaaack.)

Back to the Buffyverse, though - the constant themes of punishment and anywhere from dubious consent to rape are. . .kind of exhausting to even look at. I don't feel it diminishes Buffy as a feminist show, but it's just upsetting and I don't even know where to go with my thoughts beyond 'omg jawdrop.'

(Also, I'm getting flashes of my old gripe with Rob Thomas's handle of rape on VMars. UGH WHY THEY GOTS TO INVENT MY FAVORITE TINY BLONDES AND THEN BRING THEM DOWN.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

OH YES about exploitation and the girl-on-girl with Inara. Especially because Joss has multiple instances of exploring lesbian relationships but has ZERO times when he explores male homosexuality in a way that isn't played for laughs. I can't imagine that his motives are entirely pure when that is the case.

Back to the Buffyverse, though - the constant themes of punishment and anywhere from dubious consent to rape are. . .kind of exhausting to even look at. I don't feel it diminishes Buffy as a feminist show, but it's just upsetting and I don't even know where to go with my thoughts beyond 'omg jawdrop.'
Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. It doesn't diminish my love of the show, but it does diminish my love for Joss, and it makes me wary whenever another comic installment comes out.

AND YES ABOUT OUR FAVORITE TINY BLONDES WHAT THE HELL.

Honestly, this list is even longer than I thought it would be. *sigh*

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

If we're counting statutory rape, Buffy was a freaking school counsellor in Him and the guy was a STUDENT. Also: See Surprise.

And yes, Dru was raped by Angelus and Darla when they turned her. Angelus also raped Holtz's wife "repeatedly" and bragged about it. Angelus also threatened to rape Fred.

Cordy was also possessed when we had eye-sporking Connor/Cordy sex.

(including me—I don’t have a problem with it from the perspective of Spike’s story, but I do from Buffy’s: it makes her a victim and reduces her story to something to serve Spike’s story, and on a feminist show that’s All About Buffy, this is problematic

I'm not sure that it wasn't done to serve Buffy's story. It's the old rape redemption cliche in soaps. Whenever they write a female character into being unsympathetic to the audience (and Buffy's popularity had plummeted at that time. UPN market research at the time had her at either third or fourth in popularity... in her own show (I say third or fourth because I can't remember whether Tara was more popular than Buffy at that time. I know that both Willow and Spike were). Anyway, it's fairly standard soap trope that if they have a female character who has been rendered unsympathetic to the audience, the quickie way to solve it is never to write a plot for her where she works toward bettering herself but to quickly victimize her with rape. It's only partially successful, but soaps do it all the time. The fact that Buffy who had consistently been shown to be physically stronger for years prior to that scene only to be written as suddenly extremely physicaly vulnerable for that one scene and that one scene alone has always made me suspicious that Marti Noxon was doing ye old soap cliche. Hell, when she pitched it as a storyline she (and Joss!) specifically compared it to a soap opera (General Hospital). So... consider me suspicious.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yup. Same with what almost happened between Xander and Ms. French in "Teacher's Pet"--student/teacher relationships, particularly on the high school level, can't be consensual because of the inherent power imbalance.

Ah! I'd forgotten about Holtz's wife! Thanks! Do you happen to remember the episode where Angelus threatens that? It's been a while since I've seen S4.

OH GROSS. Seriously, I didn't realize that was a trope. If that was the impulse, that's disgusting. The idea that women have to be put in their place through sexualized violence in order for an audience to care about them is so loathesome I want to cry. STAB STAB STAB.

[dee81.livejournal.com]

I didn't get a chance to read the whole post yet, but the part that stood out for me was the "sex leads to badness." That philosophy along with the whole true love is doomed view is annoying. It's actually the number one reason why I didn't watch Dollhouse and Dr. Horrible. And also why I didn't finish Firefly.

I love Joss Whedon, I really do. I think he's a creative genius and I owe him my beloved shows and characters. However, his ability to equate love/sex with death and violence gets old. And to spare myself of getting aggravated and sad each time a character gets killed off while they're in love...pisses. Me. Off. It was good the first dozen times when done right. But after awhile, dude...give it up. He's so much better than that and instead he just chooses to go the same route all the time.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you. It drives me absolutely insane. It's lazy and immature, and he can do better, but he refuses to.

We actually did get one happy relationship to come out of DH intact. But that's it.

*sigh*

[next_to_normal]

Okay, I am back. I honestly can't decide if I'm giving Joss too much credit here, but I want to say that I think this is largely the result of ignorance on his part. And part of it's privilege, and part of it is just not considering the possible other readings of things beyond what he's trying to say (like being totally ignorant of the Evil/Dead Lesbian cliche in killing Tara), but it does have the tendency to get very, very ugly when it's all added up like this.

As much as Joss claims to be a feminist, he really has an AWFUL grasp on the concept of consent. There are a lot of times when sex is deliberately meant to be bad (i.e. Innocence, S6 Spuffy) and so the consequences are the whole point, but there are SO many instances where the consequences are never even addressed, like Willow/Tara, Faith in Buffy's body, Faith/Xander, etc. Who knows whether the Twuffy sex will get addressed, but right now it's looking glossed over.

I think a lot of it has to do with the way magic is used in the Buffyverse. So many of these instances have to do with mind control spells, making people want to do things they normally wouldn't, and most of us read these kinds of spells as date rape. And I think Joss totally and completely doesn't get that. Maybe he just doesn't see a real life equivalent to spells, so he doesn't think in terms of the message it sends, I don't know.

Of course, the times when the message IS "sex is bad" are also problematic. In those cases, I think it's more that Joss likes the drama of relationships that go wrong, and in particular he likes the trope of making someone happy right before killing them, so he uses sex a lot as a way to do that. And I wouldn't have a problem with it, if it weren't for the dearth of positive examples to counterbalance it. For one thing, it's painfully overused and predictable, so it's not even having the effect that he wants anymore. But more importantly, if you only ever show the negative consequences, then it becomes a rather unpleasant message about sex. And it really makes me wonder if Joss has some kind of issues here, because it's becoming hard to believe that it's just about the drama.

As brilliant as he is, in a lot of ways, Joss is very, very limited. And when it comes to creating relationship drama, he seems to be a one-trick pony. Whether it's just because he can't think of anything else (which is... sad) or he really wants to hammer home this message (which is... disturbing), I'm not sure.

I really would love to ask him that question someday: "What message are viewers supposed to take away from the depictions of sex in the Buffyverse?" I'm 99% sure he'd give some sort of "author is dead - you decide what it means" response, but this is one case where I'm really very curious what he was thinking.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Um, I am madly in love with this comment, because your thoughts are my thoughts. They aren't even identical twins--they're like clones. Exactly the same. In every way. YES to everything herein.

Also, your icon is lolarious.

[snickfic]

I don't really have anything to say about the Sex Leads to Badness trope either. On one hand, I have different views on the purpose of sex than a lot of the folks who complain about this trope; on the other, any pattern repeated this often starts to look like plain bad storytelling, regardless of the meta.

Also, Anya dies the day after she and Xander finally get together again, sort of.

Unrelated note: I associate your "I'm a bitch. Ask me how." icon with Emmie, which means I read your entire post and some of the comments before I realized that you had written it. I guess I should have realized; if nothing else, you're fonder of lists and caps than she is. But I didn't.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

On one hand, I have different views on the purpose of sex than a lot of the folks who complain about this trope; on the other, any pattern repeated this often starts to look like plain bad storytelling, regardless of the meta.
I agree with both of these statements.

Also, Anya dies the day after she and Xander finally get together again, sort of.
I think it was a couple of days later, but still. Very close.

Ha! And I identify this icon with eowyn_315. Now I'm laughing forever. I am fond of lists and caps.

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

I haven't read all the comments yet and I need a few to digest and think out my comment but I thought of one more kind of skeevy sex episode in Angel Season One. Lonely Hearts, where someone sleeps with a date and winds up dead.

And totally offtopic, I didn't want to overwelm angearia's LJ but you should SO watch Seeker. It's filled with great writing, kick ass women, amazing relationships. And the fandom is SO fantastic. Friendly, wank free. I love it sfm, I can't even tell you. It's what I wish Buffy S8 was.

[parallactic.livejournal.com]

I wandered in from somewhere.

1. Metaphorical Implied Rape

*Spike and Willow in S3 Lovers Walk where Spike says Willow smells nice, he hasn't had a girl in weeks, and Willow defends herself by saying there won't be any "having of anyone" if he wants her to do the love spell.

*Spike and Willow in that S4 ep where Spike attacks Willow and finds out he's chipped. I wouldn't have counted vamp biting as metaphorical rape, except for the chipped vamp = impotence joke afterwards, and how the chip is presented as neutering and emasculating. In S4 there's a comedic theme of Spike's inability to do violence with being emasculated (impotence, neutered, trip to the vet, losing his rocks, etc.), and I read the chip as commentary on machismo.

2. Sex leads to badness

I'm actually entertained by how the Whedonverse seems to have Angel's gypsy curse, where anyone who gets too happy or too much romance leads to doom. But I agree that Romance is Doomed has a big overlap with sex = bad.

Compare this to: Buffy has sex with Riley; their relationship ends as most relationships do (except that in this case the guy acts like a horrible passive-aggressive douchebag before he leaves. I recently rewatched “Into the Woods” and am bitter)

I have "did they really mean that?" rage at ItW, and think it accidentally feeds into the sex = punishment theme because it seems to blame Buffy for Riley's cheating. Riley sneaks out of bed, pays for vamp suckjobs, and later says he finds the vamps appealing because they needed him unlike Buffy. There was that other S5 ep where a female vamp chats up Riley at the bar and he initially refuses her by telling her he has a girlfriend. So there's this vamp suckjobs as metaphorical cheating, and then Riley blames Buffy for it...and Xander later on tells Buffy that she treated Riley as convenient and needed to value him more. It becomes an unintended message that if a girl is emotionally unavailable, and/or too wrapped up in her sick mom and endangered sister and new enemy to the point of being oblivious when her uncommunicative boyfriend is having issues, and/or doesn't accept her boyfriend's emotional support and need him enough--then she's to blame if her boyfriend cheats on her.

Also, a girl's male friend, stalker, and boyfriend all know what she wants and needs better than she does. I hate Buffy for not having self-respect, Riley for being a cheating chauvinistic pig who's idiotic enough to listen to his girlfriend's stalker more than his girlfriend, Spike for being a delusional stalker, and Xander for being a Nice Guy judgmental friend. (Repeat viewings of ItW made me more offended instead of mellowing me out like I thought it would.)

So it looks like the Buffy comic glowhypnol plot (from what I've read, since I stopped following the comics) does have a stronger precedence in the show. Twangel knows what Buffy needs better than she does! Buffy's so screwed up and isolated, she prioritizes endangered/dead women over Twu Love! It's not really Twangel's fault for being a lying manipulative douchebag, it's her fault for trying to be a good Slayer! He will show her this through sex! Chauvinism causes massive brain damage! ...Huh. I think #35 makes Twangel less offensive than ItW!Riley. I did not expect to conclude that.

I actually like the BBB Xander and Buffy scenes, because I thought the point of it was that if your crush comes on to you when she's intoxicated, then you turn her down no matter how much you want her and no matter how seductive she is. Buffy later thanks Xander for not taking advantage. It's also reinforced in Beer Bad when cave!Buffy makes a pass at Xander and he takes it as a sign of the magic beer messing her up and tries to look after her.

[parallactic.livejournal.com]

Sorry for spamming your LJ, but I haven't read through the other comments and wanted to add another metaphorical rape.

*GiD where Buffy says she didn't jump into the portal just to get "knocked up" by the demon essence the proto-Watchers tried to force on her. It's also got ugly racist connotations of black men gang raping a white woman.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, GAH. Just seeing it listed out like this makes me sick. And you nailed it when you said that BtVS was supposed to be about subverting the horror trope of "woman has sex and is punished". It seems like Joss doesn't realize he's playing with a misogynist deck and only thought to turn around one card to subvert it--all other 51 cards he's wheeling and dealing. FUCK THAT.

P. "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" - All of the women are completely overtaken with love for Xander because of his spell backfiring. Thankfully, no actual sex happens, but Buffy comes on to him. Shadiness abounds

Willow also comes on to him. Remember she is waiting for him in his bed and tries to get him to have sex with her? Then the next morning Oz punches him because Willow spent the entire night crying to him on the phone.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

That's exactly how I reacted to your nudity in S8/male gaze post. Just seem it quantified....

It seems like Joss doesn't realize he's playing with a misogynist deck and only thought to turn around one card to subvert it--all other 51 cards he's wheeling and dealing. FUCK THAT. OH YES. I love the way you've phrased this.

It's been so long since I've seen that episode that I'd forgotten that. Thanks for the reminder. I need to put that in there, too.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

♥

Mind if I link to this, hon?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Knock yourself out! Except not literally, because that would hurt. :D

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

I read through all the comments and I think the sex=badness has been pretty well covered but for me, above all, isn't the sex=badness neccessarily, it's the horrible view of pregnancy in the Buffyverse. I have complicated thinky thoughts on pregnancy and the instances in Angel just rub me the wrong way.

First, you have Expecting, where Cordelia sleeps with Wilson Christopher and wakes up pregnant. A lot of fanon speculation, from what Cordelia says, is that it was Cordelia's first time. So that is strike one. You have sex once, you end up pregnant. Not only that but she isn't giving birth to something great, it's not a miracle, it's evil and it's influencing her. It reminds me of the countless papers I read equating a fetus to a parasite, living off it's host mother (more on that later).

Then you have Epiphany, which people tend to forget, in which Cordelia is used by the Skilosh demons to house their spawn because she and the guys helped the family to be rid of them. Once more, nobody asks her and she gets forced to have an evil demon inside of her.

Oh Darla, you've got the whole Darla nobly sacrificing herself for Connor but Connor didn't turn out to be a force of good. He was a twisted kid, yes, and he unknowingly brought about Jasmine. In the end, the only way for Angel to save him was to ERASE THE MEMORY HE EVER EXISTED!

And then Jasmine, jebus. Does this really need to be expounded on? Cordelia gets her body jacked in the higher realms and used not only for quasi-incest (I can forgive Connor, he had no memories of her as a mother-figure) but then she gives birth to a being that could be compared to the Anti-Christ.

You already pointed out the Fred and Illyria connection. The only pregnancy we see, again as you said on angearia's post, is the woman in Judgement who needs a big strong man to protect her and her mystical baby. And who knows if that child would have even been good!

If Joss was trying to subvert the ideas of pregnancy, of consent, of sex, he did a piss poor job. He didn't take it any further than a very superficial and surface level. Like so many other times, he swept things under the rug or flat out ignored them for the sake of another story. Subversion requires intellect, it requires plotting, pacing, loose ends to be tied up so people go wow, I never saw it like that. Instead of just saying this is bad, believe me cause I tell you. I'm the man, and what I says goes!

ETA: OH! OH! Thought of another one. How about the fact that if Cordelia comsucks Groo, she will lose her visions. Her visions, the thing she feels makes her part of the missions, gives her a higher purpose. So either she can be the champion she sees herself as and keep the visions or she can have sex and lose a part of her identity.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this post by pocochina pretty much spells out my issues with pregnancy in AtS. It's icky.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Great post and you touch a world of issues here that I had with the series.

I wish they hadn't gone with those mystically enhanced rape tropes so often and barely ever given them the deserved comeuppance.

I think it's a topic that should be talked about, but they often abstracted it to a point where they ended up downplaying it in my mind.

Great discussion you've got going here. *goes and reads all the comments*

ETA: Glad I get to eta this one, before you answered, since it was a late night post and I somehow ended up missing my own point:

What I meant to say is that I'm very uncomfortable with how rarely rape is seen as a serious offence in the verse (it sure is for Spike, but not in many other instances)-instead of being an offence it is often the punishment for having sex at all, which I think is a quite horrible message.

Rape is not a natural consequence of anything, but it is very often depicted that way in the verse (even the AR).

[probablecylon.livejournal.com]

I'd tried to steer clear of all discussions of rape, even to the extent of not using the word or the initials AR, because of just how often the subject came up as trivialized through its multiple usage in discussions about Jossverse. But the discussions come up because Joss doesn't seem to have another dramatic device at hand. 'Sex is the mysticism of materialism' (Denis de Rougemont) seems to be realized ad infinitum and ad nauseum in Joss . . . and I'd hope that the most recent horror might get him to re-evaluate exactly what he's been doing over the course of 13 years instead of believing his own PR releases.

[thevera.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this post. It's alarming how many of these examples are never properly dealt with, and even the SR scene, which is one of the few cases actually treated as rape attempt, makes me uncomfortable in a RL context with its 'forgiving the rapist' thing going on.

YES on Willow/Tara, Faith/Riley, and Faith/Xander.

Glowy sex in space, which may as well never be addressed in terms of content just like the above (), bothers me even more with the dismissive response to fans' concerns by the Men Behind the Comics.

As for (attempted) rape on the show, I'd add the guy who tries to assault Buffy in Go Fish -- than she fights back, Snyder appears and blaming the victim occurs.

Pregnancy in Buffyverse = FAIL.

It seems like Firefly is the only Joss' project which doesn't bear any negative sex traits, as far as I recall. Kaylee is portrait as being very open/positive about her sexuality; no bad result. Zoe and Wash had a happy and fully functional relationship and Wash's death doesn't seem to be directly related to that. And so on.

Anyway, thanks again for bringing up such an important topic.

Or something.

[thevera.livejournal.com]

Although, re: Firefly, that might be effect of having only one season.

[terendel.livejournal.com]

I just have to say this somewhere, and this thread seems as good a place as any.

I have LOTS of problems with the AR in SR. But, what made it even worse for me was the re-showing of it over and over again in the "Previously on Buffy." Once was bad enough. But to be repeatedly subjected to it was truly offensive.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

I don't know how this really gets categorized, but Buffy's breakdown to Tara over "coming back wrong" and "don't tell me I'm OK" has always disturbed me greatly. What Tara says to her is well meaning, but so -- inadequate. It's not really about her feelings for Spike one way or another, it's about her feelings over her own sexuality. It seems like a deliberate cruelty to leave her there at the end of that episode, one big open would, with so little comfort, almost as if to say "see, she's being punished for getting her kink on". Always, always, I have this terrible feeling in my gut over how that's presented, and how they leave it. I wanna hold her and have a looooooong talk with her.

[rahirah]

There are actually a couple of lines in the original shooting script which I wish hadn't been cut: Buffy says something to the effect that Tara can't understand what it's like to hide what she is every day, and Tara looks at her and replies, "Honey, I'm a fag." (Which, no, she's a dyke, but still.)

Possibly they cut them because they thought it would be problematic to draw an analogy between vampires and LGBT people (and it would definitely be problematic) but Buffy's relationship with Spike has always resonated to me as the relationship of a self-loathing closet case with a more flamboyantly out partner whom she's ashamed of.

[samsom.livejournal.com]

I can't wait to read through the comments but I'd like add to the "rape list" -

In Epiphany Cordelia is held down by the Skilosh demons, screaming "no, no" while a phallic-shaped object protruding from one of the demon's mouths, is forced into the back of her head to "impregnate" her with the Skilosh "young" (the creepy, icky third eye) - all this while her menfolk are racing to save her. I swear, I get so damned uncomfortable watching that scene - if it weren't the back of her head, but lower down her torso, it wouldn't even be a question of whether she was raped. She was.

Also, I consider her encounter with Wilson Christopher to be rape because he was acting as a 'substitute' or conduit for the demon that impregnated her - both without her knowledge or consent.

In addition, Cordelia is physically tortured in Pylea by male "priests" in order to discern whether she has the visions - something reminiscent of the Salem witch trials and completely swept under the rug in favor of putting Cordelia in that stupid belly dancer's outfit (that covered nothing) and some laughs.

And there's no question in my mind that Cordelia wasn't in control of her body or mind when Connor slept with it. So, rape. Again.

And then there's the obvious fates of the women of AtS - Cordelia is raped of mind and body and then killed after being forced to carry Jasmine to term, Fred is hollowed out both because Wes needed something to angst over in black turtlenecks and five o' clock shadow and Joss wanted a new toy to play with, and Lilah, a woman on par with Cordelia Chase, is murdered, drained and beheaded - then consigned to hell. So whenever I see Joss the feminist being touted by fandom, I think of these ladies and I laugh caustically and cynically to myself.

God. It feels good to unload. :)

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your insightful words and the work (and possibly hurt) you put into them. Love you.

A lot has been said already and i don't want to clobber up your space by repeating.

While a lot of fans (especially in this section of fandom) despise the relationship between Buffy and Riley i personally like the the relationship exactly because it is sexually healthy and - with the exception of the end and the sex episode* - not the big focus of season 4 and 5 (the sex, i mean. It is NOT all about Buffy's vagina - and that's good).

Mind you, i don't like Riley. Nazi soldier types are just not my favourite characters. ;-) But their relationship is a) not the focus of the show and b) they don't have evil!sex (apart from the instances you mention - so, Whedon obviously has issues, but the overall theme of their relationship is not OMGevilsexbadness!).

* I once read somewhere that the episode was a commentary by Whedon towards FOX - someone on the networks was of the opinion that BtVS had too much violence, so Whedon made a porn episode to ridicule them. I don't know if this is true or an urban myth - but seems definatly possible.