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S8--now with thinky thoughts!
I have actual thinky thoughts on the whole S8 thing! More than just ranting and raving! They aren’t very well informed thoughts, true, but aren’t y’all proud of me anyways? These aren’t S8 bashing-thoughts, though. I have people on my flist (*coughemmiecough*) who are big fans of S8 and who regularly feel attacked about them. So feel free to express your thoughts that they’re ridiculous, but no real bashing, and no being ugly to people who disagree with you, okay?
In the immortal words of my mama, who always shouted them after me every single time I left the house: be sweet!
And I’m kind of hesitant to talk about this, because all my information is second hand, and I feel like people will be annoyed with me for talking about something I’m not terribly informed about. So I guess here’s a warning: if you’re one of those people who will indeed be annoyed with me because I’m talking about something I have no first-hand knowledge of, don’t waste your time reading this. Okay? Okay!
But first, some thoughts on my thoughts on the comics!
Here's the thing: I'm not reading the comics. I never read the comics. I've discussed this with![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
angearia a thousand times before, but the whole medium doesn't do much for me. For me, fiction is mostly about motive. In a novel, a short story, even a poem, the motive is there: on the page. I can submerse myself in someone else's thought processes, bury myself in their brain space, and that is supremely satisfying to me. On the other hand, in film and television, I have actors communicating to me, and when they're good at what they do, I can figure out what their motives are by the looks on their faces, their inflection, etc. I can get into their brains. And I love that.
With comics, I have neither way in. And so it takes something really special to overcome my antipathy towards the medium (like, Watchmen or Sandman or something) and engage myself in the story. (Sometime, I'm going to write a big long rambling post on why I love novels and--in general, with a few very vivid exceptions--dislike short stories.snickfic has heard it already, but hey! I like to ramble!). S8...isn't enough. I guess maybe it should be. I'm so incredibly invested in the character of Buffy Summers. I love Dawn. I'd really like to see more of Faith as she comes into her own. One would think that I'd be all about this whole "new season" thing.
But I'm not. About 2/3 of this has to do with my dislike of comics as a medium. The remainder has to do with the fact that A) Buffy therein doesn't sound like my Buffy (I understand that a lot of people can totally reconcile the whole bank robber thing. I appreciate that--good for them! I, however, can't), and B) I'm not convinced that it will all come together in the end. It's an unpopular opinion, I know, but I've never thought that Joss can do wrong. He can--big, massive-fail kind of wrong. Of course, he can also do big, massive-win kind of right, which is mostly what Buffy is, and which is why I still consider myself a fan.
But...Battlestar Galactica. I don't regret for a moment watching that show. But I am frustrated by the conclusion (I’ll say no more for the sake of a few people I know are still catching up *winkwink*). Mostly on a character-level, it worked for me, but on a plot-and-theme level? It didn’t. And it was a big letdown. And then there’s LOST, which I quit watching a few episodes into S3. I had watched it absolutely compulsively from the first episode till then, but it got to the point where it felt more like a labor to watch than an enjoyment. However, everyone’s told me that it got good again. But I still haven’t caught up, because I don’t know that I trust that it will have a satisfying ending. So I’m going to wait until it finishes airing, and then talk to people whose opinions I trust, and then see if it’s worth my time. There’s far, far too much great TV for me to be watching to waste my time on something that will end up being ultimately disappointing.
And that’s what I intend to do with S8, too. Ifangearia and everyone else on my flist who’s still reading it thinks it ends well and everything comes together, then, yes, I might just check it out. I don’t begrudge anyone else’s enjoyment of them (in fact, I think it’s kind of sad how attacked and badgered the fans of S8 feel around here. *pets Emmie*), and I’m thrilled that they like them! I hope they continue to! No S8 bashing here! But for now, I just don’t care about them.
Except that I do care. As I’ve been poking around reading other people’s thoughts here in our little corner of Buffy fandom, someone (I think it might have beenquinara? Maybe?) summed up my thoughts completely: I don’t care about the comics. Except that I do. I don’t care about the comics themselves, but I still care (profoundly) about the characters they’re telling a story about. So when things are plugging along, neutral or positive or even mildly negative, I’m fine and I read angearia’s thoughts and move on with my life. But when they become really, really negative? Well, that’s a different story.
Which leads me to this latest reveal.
I actually think this is perfectly in character for Angel as a character. The very thoughtfulstormwreath pretty much sums up why here in a most excellent post. I (generally) love S5 of Angel and I lovelovelove “Not Fade Away,” even though I think both the season and the finale were, in fact, not at all about heroism but about how supremely, supremely messed up Angel’s sense of morality is—and how he dragged the people around him down with him. I don’t precisely like Angel, except when he’s interacting with Spike, Darla (I don’t care what you say, she’s his true love!), or Connor (or Cordy, before they completely ruined her personality starting in S3 of AtS. But that’s another story). I get frustrated beyond belief that he always think he knows best—hubris, much? But I do find him a generally interesting character, even if I’ll never be overly invested in him because he stirs no passionate feelings in me. So the idea of him going to the Twilight place? Is fine with me. It sounds interesting. If done well (which, I admit, I don’t have a ton of faith in)—and by well, I mean fully embracing how awful his decision is, and really exploring the fact that the ends don’t justify the means—I think it could be excellent.
But there are two things that give me pause.
The first is this: I don’t know that Joss will actually be willing to go there. The fan backlash will be too extreme. I think the only reason they got away with AtS S5 at all is because people actually think he did the right thing, and they view NFA as heroic. Which it isn’t. It’s awful. Just like Twilight’s actions. And if it’s actually presented as awful, I feel like Angel’s fans will not be happy (and I can’t blame them).
The second is this: Spike. Oh, yes. If it doesn’t come back to Buffy for me, it comes back to Spike. I identify with him to an unhealthy degree (again, one day I’m going to post a big rambling overshare about why I identify with him so deeply), and I’m totally invested in his journey. And, asgabrielleabelle says in the GREATEST POST EVER, Spike is either completely unimportant to S8 or is going to be incredibly vital, so much so that his presence will be a BIG DEAL.
I’m not a fan of either option. I’m not a fan of him not mattering because even if I didn’t believe that Buffy loved him very much in S7 (which I do. I do I do I do!), I don’t believe there’s any denying that he was important to her. One of the major figures in her life. I can’t believe she wouldn’t care whether he was alive or not or that she wouldn’t at least think about him (in some way other than as a sexual fantasy) once in a while. But I prefer this one to the other option.
Because the other option is that he will be majorly important. And, y’all, there’s no way that he’ll come in as a good guy. If he shows up, he’s going to be on Twilight’s side. The fact is, there’s no way Joss is ever going to settle the Buffy/Angel versus Buffy/Spike thing. It isn’t going to happen. It would piss off one side or the other too much. So I don’t believe for a second that he’ll bring Spike in and have him be a good guy while Angel’s being evil. Because that would infuriate the Angel fans. But if he brought him in as a bad guy? Well, then I would be infuriated.
Also, as someone pointed out, whenever Angel pops up in Buffy’s thought’s he’s always accompanied by Spike (sometimes really, really accompanied by him, if you catch my meaning). And Spike’s been right there with Angel since he popped out of that amulet.
And, y’all, I will care if Spike is as evil as Twilight. I will care. Because Spike’s story—his stumble towards redemption, with all its twists and turns, and his continued efforts to stay on the straight-and-narrow--matters to me. The comics aren’t part of my canon. But still. I’ll be kind of crushed if all that he’s worked so hard to attain is crushed or dismissed in S8. Yeah, it’ll hurt.
Now, there’s a possibility that Joss will pull something so complex, so masterful that all of my objections will becoming moot and ALL WILL BE REVEALED. Wouldn’t that be absolutely kick-ass? But I don’t think that’ll happen. Because the fact is, that while Joss is simply amazing at characterization (mostly) and at big emotional moments and subverting tropes and writing fantastic dialogue, he sucks at plotting. Almost as much as he does at world-building. And I just don’t think he’ll pull this off.
But I really hope I’m wrong! I hope the final installments of the comics are brilliantbrilliantbrilliant and that everyone loves them so much that I’m convinced to read them and that I love them so much and they make me happy and inspire me to write all kinds of fic and that they earn a place on my (newly-organized!) bookshelves.
But…I’m kinda skeptical.
But I suppose we’ll see!
In the immortal words of my mama, who always shouted them after me every single time I left the house: be sweet!
And I’m kind of hesitant to talk about this, because all my information is second hand, and I feel like people will be annoyed with me for talking about something I’m not terribly informed about. So I guess here’s a warning: if you’re one of those people who will indeed be annoyed with me because I’m talking about something I have no first-hand knowledge of, don’t waste your time reading this. Okay? Okay!
But first, some thoughts on my thoughts on the comics!
Here's the thing: I'm not reading the comics. I never read the comics. I've discussed this with
angearia a thousand times before, but the whole medium doesn't do much for me. For me, fiction is mostly about motive. In a novel, a short story, even a poem, the motive is there: on the page. I can submerse myself in someone else's thought processes, bury myself in their brain space, and that is supremely satisfying to me. On the other hand, in film and television, I have actors communicating to me, and when they're good at what they do, I can figure out what their motives are by the looks on their faces, their inflection, etc. I can get into their brains. And I love that.With comics, I have neither way in. And so it takes something really special to overcome my antipathy towards the medium (like, Watchmen or Sandman or something) and engage myself in the story. (Sometime, I'm going to write a big long rambling post on why I love novels and--in general, with a few very vivid exceptions--dislike short stories.
snickfic has heard it already, but hey! I like to ramble!). S8...isn't enough. I guess maybe it should be. I'm so incredibly invested in the character of Buffy Summers. I love Dawn. I'd really like to see more of Faith as she comes into her own. One would think that I'd be all about this whole "new season" thing.But I'm not. About 2/3 of this has to do with my dislike of comics as a medium. The remainder has to do with the fact that A) Buffy therein doesn't sound like my Buffy (I understand that a lot of people can totally reconcile the whole bank robber thing. I appreciate that--good for them! I, however, can't), and B) I'm not convinced that it will all come together in the end. It's an unpopular opinion, I know, but I've never thought that Joss can do wrong. He can--big, massive-fail kind of wrong. Of course, he can also do big, massive-win kind of right, which is mostly what Buffy is, and which is why I still consider myself a fan.
But...Battlestar Galactica. I don't regret for a moment watching that show. But I am frustrated by the conclusion (I’ll say no more for the sake of a few people I know are still catching up *winkwink*). Mostly on a character-level, it worked for me, but on a plot-and-theme level? It didn’t. And it was a big letdown. And then there’s LOST, which I quit watching a few episodes into S3. I had watched it absolutely compulsively from the first episode till then, but it got to the point where it felt more like a labor to watch than an enjoyment. However, everyone’s told me that it got good again. But I still haven’t caught up, because I don’t know that I trust that it will have a satisfying ending. So I’m going to wait until it finishes airing, and then talk to people whose opinions I trust, and then see if it’s worth my time. There’s far, far too much great TV for me to be watching to waste my time on something that will end up being ultimately disappointing.
And that’s what I intend to do with S8, too. If
angearia and everyone else on my flist who’s still reading it thinks it ends well and everything comes together, then, yes, I might just check it out. I don’t begrudge anyone else’s enjoyment of them (in fact, I think it’s kind of sad how attacked and badgered the fans of S8 feel around here. *pets Emmie*), and I’m thrilled that they like them! I hope they continue to! No S8 bashing here! But for now, I just don’t care about them.Except that I do care. As I’ve been poking around reading other people’s thoughts here in our little corner of Buffy fandom, someone (I think it might have been
quinara? Maybe?) summed up my thoughts completely: I don’t care about the comics. Except that I do. I don’t care about the comics themselves, but I still care (profoundly) about the characters they’re telling a story about. So when things are plugging along, neutral or positive or even mildly negative, I’m fine and I read angearia’s thoughts and move on with my life. But when they become really, really negative? Well, that’s a different story.Which leads me to this latest reveal.
I actually think this is perfectly in character for Angel as a character. The very thoughtful
stormwreath pretty much sums up why here in a most excellent post. I (generally) love S5 of Angel and I lovelovelove “Not Fade Away,” even though I think both the season and the finale were, in fact, not at all about heroism but about how supremely, supremely messed up Angel’s sense of morality is—and how he dragged the people around him down with him. I don’t precisely like Angel, except when he’s interacting with Spike, Darla (I don’t care what you say, she’s his true love!), or Connor (or Cordy, before they completely ruined her personality starting in S3 of AtS. But that’s another story). I get frustrated beyond belief that he always think he knows best—hubris, much? But I do find him a generally interesting character, even if I’ll never be overly invested in him because he stirs no passionate feelings in me. So the idea of him going to the Twilight place? Is fine with me. It sounds interesting. If done well (which, I admit, I don’t have a ton of faith in)—and by well, I mean fully embracing how awful his decision is, and really exploring the fact that the ends don’t justify the means—I think it could be excellent.But there are two things that give me pause.
The first is this: I don’t know that Joss will actually be willing to go there. The fan backlash will be too extreme. I think the only reason they got away with AtS S5 at all is because people actually think he did the right thing, and they view NFA as heroic. Which it isn’t. It’s awful. Just like Twilight’s actions. And if it’s actually presented as awful, I feel like Angel’s fans will not be happy (and I can’t blame them).
The second is this: Spike. Oh, yes. If it doesn’t come back to Buffy for me, it comes back to Spike. I identify with him to an unhealthy degree (again, one day I’m going to post a big rambling overshare about why I identify with him so deeply), and I’m totally invested in his journey. And, as
gabrielleabelle says in the GREATEST POST EVER, Spike is either completely unimportant to S8 or is going to be incredibly vital, so much so that his presence will be a BIG DEAL.I’m not a fan of either option. I’m not a fan of him not mattering because even if I didn’t believe that Buffy loved him very much in S7 (which I do. I do I do I do!), I don’t believe there’s any denying that he was important to her. One of the major figures in her life. I can’t believe she wouldn’t care whether he was alive or not or that she wouldn’t at least think about him (in some way other than as a sexual fantasy) once in a while. But I prefer this one to the other option.
Because the other option is that he will be majorly important. And, y’all, there’s no way that he’ll come in as a good guy. If he shows up, he’s going to be on Twilight’s side. The fact is, there’s no way Joss is ever going to settle the Buffy/Angel versus Buffy/Spike thing. It isn’t going to happen. It would piss off one side or the other too much. So I don’t believe for a second that he’ll bring Spike in and have him be a good guy while Angel’s being evil. Because that would infuriate the Angel fans. But if he brought him in as a bad guy? Well, then I would be infuriated.
Also, as someone pointed out, whenever Angel pops up in Buffy’s thought’s he’s always accompanied by Spike (sometimes really, really accompanied by him, if you catch my meaning). And Spike’s been right there with Angel since he popped out of that amulet.
And, y’all, I will care if Spike is as evil as Twilight. I will care. Because Spike’s story—his stumble towards redemption, with all its twists and turns, and his continued efforts to stay on the straight-and-narrow--matters to me. The comics aren’t part of my canon. But still. I’ll be kind of crushed if all that he’s worked so hard to attain is crushed or dismissed in S8. Yeah, it’ll hurt.
Now, there’s a possibility that Joss will pull something so complex, so masterful that all of my objections will becoming moot and ALL WILL BE REVEALED. Wouldn’t that be absolutely kick-ass? But I don’t think that’ll happen. Because the fact is, that while Joss is simply amazing at characterization (mostly) and at big emotional moments and subverting tropes and writing fantastic dialogue, he sucks at plotting. Almost as much as he does at world-building. And I just don’t think he’ll pull this off.
But I really hope I’m wrong! I hope the final installments of the comics are brilliantbrilliantbrilliant and that everyone loves them so much that I’m convinced to read them and that I love them so much and they make me happy and inspire me to write all kinds of fic and that they earn a place on my (newly-organized!) bookshelves.
But…I’m kinda skeptical.
But I suppose we’ll see!
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I knew Joss and I had something in common! (Hint: it's the last bit.) Heh.
I do read the comics, but I just can't invest in them, like I did the show. I'm following, but it feels like I'm at a distance, you know? I share your hopes and fears.
no subject
I'm following, but it feels like I'm at a distance, you know? I do know. I would be exactly the same way--part of that would be because I can't invest in the medium, and part of that would be not being able to invest in the story.
See, I kinda think that a prallel universe is a cop-out: Joss wanting to have his cake, yadayada. It kinda feels cheap to me, though I admit that it's what I think will end up happening.
At this point, I just want Spike not to be in it, because I just don't see how it could turn out to positively affect his story in any way.
I do think it's interesting how this twist has us talking about S8 in ways no one has since the whole Satsu thing. Somewhere, Joss is tapping his fingers together and laughing maniacally.
no subject
Eeeeeeeeeee plotty fic is plotty and wonderful!
no subject
And that icon is hilarious!
no subject
Also, as someone pointed out, whenever Angel pops up in Buffy’s thought’s he’s always accompanied by Spike
I think that was maybe me. Though I'm sure others said it too like Maggie.
I agree with your concern for if Spike shows up. Right now, I'm happily thinking about how I'll write Spike as heroic in my own AU version of Season 8, irregardless of what happens in the comics. :D
I love your thoughts! They're good thoughts.
no subject
However! I'm all about measured responses to things, and since people whose opinions I respect (yours being the foremost) still think there's hope that this will all/already does make sense, I thought it better to analyze it from a different perspective.
It was you! I'm pretty sure! Though I've been ready a lot of reactions lately.
Right now, I'm happily thinking about how I'll write Spike as heroic in my own AU version of Season 8, irregardless of what happens in the comics. :D See, and that's what I'm really concerned about. Because I trust you a lot more than I trust Joss and TYSK is already OMG SO GOOD. Yay!
Thank you! I'm glad you thought so! I was trying to be reasonable!
That icon always cracks me up.
no subject
Do you think that Joss will actually say anything conclusive about Spike in the later interview he's doing? Because I still remain skeptical, but I feel like you know more about what the Powers That Be are and aren't willing to talk about spoilers wise. AND I REALLY WANT AN ANSWER! *tries not to care*
Also, I reread my comment and realized it sounded like I was one of those Scott Allie bashers, and I didn't mean to come across that way. I just know he doesn't care for Spike or think anything of his importance to Buffy, so I don't think we'd ever see eye to eye on things.
no subject
But I have faith in Joss! Because his interview quelled that topsy turviness in my stomach. And all while doing it with class and humor. So, I've got faith. With a slight twinge of worry.
But recall earlier he had an interview where he referred to Angel and Spike showing up and how he had to wait for a good moment to bring in Buffy's "boys" - I do think he realizes they're linked.
no subject
;) OT, but I am on the verge of viewing Daybreak parts 2 and 3! I'll probably enjoy it 'cause I'm easy like that, but I'll keep you posted.
identify with him to an unhealthy degree (again, one day I’m going to post a big rambling overshare about why I identify with him so deeply)
*impatiently anticipates Spike meta*
I've also never read S8, but from most people's complaints about Buffy's characterisation, I think I'll pass. Angel being this Twilight person amuses me though.
I’ll be kind of crushed if all that he’s worked so hard to attain is crushed or dismissed in S8.
I would break something. Then again, I'm choosing to believe that canon finished with S7, so yeah, also trying not to care.
no subject
ANYWAY!
Ha! Well, the Spike meta will probably be more of extreme oversharing about my emotional state than true insight into the character. I'm pretty much a mess. ;)
Yeah, Buffy's characterization was my main reason for staying away. I'm ridiculously overprotective of her character.
I would break something. Then again, I'm choosing to believe that canon finished with S7, so yeah, also trying not to care. Exactly where I'm at.
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No. Worries. I'll be completely right there with you ;)
I too am protective about Buffy's character. Only reasonable, since we invested 7 years into her story.
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It's true, though a lot of people seemed to make it all the way through her story without liking her. *sigh*
Randy and Joan are so much love!
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Hmmm, I think it's more common that people liked her up until the later seasons, at which point the better-adjusted peeps ceased to identify with her ;)
Randy + Joan = OTP *nods*
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But then, my issues will be in my Spike-meta. ;)
True, true. They are love.
no subject
I very much understand your fear that if Spike shows up in season 8, it will be as a villain. Maybe I'm perverse, but even that would be better to me than any implication that we can tell Buffy's ongoing story without making any reference to teh guy at all. Though probably if it actually happened, I'd melt down into a puddle of abject misery. I continue to harbor hopes, though, that Spike would show up NOT as a villain.
I probably place entirely too much weight on it, but Joss has said that Spike is more evolved than Angel and that Angel is the one who has the big struggle with darkness within. The only way I see Spike getting dragged down is if his sense of loyalty and lack of confidence in his own judgment cause him to trust Angel's judgment. That did happen in NFA and that's the only way I can see Spike going evil again -- by following Angel down the road to hell. Meanwhile, I think there's a live possibility that Buffy and many fans's long-standing assumption that Angel is the true hero and Spike is at best playing catch up could get upended in this season. And I think I carry on because if that actually does happen, I want to be right there when it does.
Is it OK if I friend you?
no subject
Oh, yes. Spike is much more evolved. I wasn't aware Joss had said that, but it makes me happy.
The only way I see Spike getting dragged down is if his sense of loyalty and lack of confidence in his own judgment cause him to trust Angel's judgment. That did happen in NFA and that's the only way I can see Spike going evil again -- by following Angel down the road to hell. Oh, absolutely. Spike has this tendency to let other people define him too much, and that's definitely what he did in S5: he was clearly shaken and wasn't really sure of things, and he latched on to Angel to an extent he probably wasn't even aware of, and he ended up doing things he never would have done on his own. But hey! He ends up saving the baby! ;)
Meanwhile, I think there's a live possibility that Buffy and many fans's long-standing assumption that Angel is the true hero and Spike is at best playing catch up could get upended in this season. How awesome would that be?
And sure! I'm flattered! Friend away!
s8
I have so much to say about your post that I could write a whole book. You are soooo right - as always - in what you say about Spike. I have avoided the comics because I worry that they will spoil the BTVS universe that exists in my head - 'my' Buffy and Spike. And I cannot bear the thought that the characters will be played around with just for the sake of a plot that is trying to be different or shocking or original. JW is so good at characterisation - who else is so good at creating characters that seem lso real that they must exist somewhere in the multiverse? So don't betray them by making them behave out of character. But my problem is that I will never be satisfied unless Spike is allowed to go off into the sunset with B for a happily ever after, and that is never going to happen, and perhaps it shouldn't happen as that would be too glib an ending.
Is there a Spike Anonymous group I could join, because I think I am obsessed and really need help?!