lirazel | Recs?

Hmmm I've read fewer adult secondary world fantasies than I thought! idk if that's because there aren't as many, or because the ones that exist aren't all to my taste, or what.

At any rate, I can highly recommend The Raven Tower by Ann Leckie (it's amazing!!). Also, Midnight Robber by Nalo Hopkinson starts briefly in our world but then the rest of it takes place in a secondary world and it's intense and wonderful.

Okay, I tried The Raven Tower and found it really difficult to get into. Can you sell it to me so that I will be willing to stick with it?

I have never actually read any Nalo Hopkinson but I definitely need to do that. Thanks!

The Raven Tower is a bit of an odd duck so I can understand not getting into it immediately. This book is written in first person, but that person is talking to someone, so it's also written in second person. Which is kind of amazing and I love how this conceit plays into how the story is told, and it's not really something I've seen before.

The narrating character is a god, embodied in the form of a rock. The character the rock is talking to is Eolo, a human soldier from a rural background who is aide to Mawat, the heir of the local, uh, rulership sort of position. It's complicated. He's definitely not a prince.

Because gods have to be careful about what they say - everything they say must be true, or they will drain their power in the effort to make it true - it makes for an interesting perspective on Eolo, because the rock can never just forthrightly assume Eolo's internal processes.

The story goes back and forth between two narratives, which are slowly brought closer and closer together until the one leads into the other. One is the rock's history, starting loooooooooooooong ago in ancient prehistory, through the introduction of humans, and language, and the development of religion, and what it means to care about other beings. The other is the story of what happens in the immediate aftermath of Mawat arriving back in town expecting his father to be dead very soon and himself to take up the mantle of the Raven's Lease, but instead his father has disappeared and his uncle has usurped the role. (This is something of a Hamlet retelling, and with some really fun reversals and recintextualizations! It's also in part inspired by the legend of the Sampo, and the play Death and the King's Horseman, and the way they all combine is so cool)

I adore both Eolo and the rock, they're both fascinating characters, and the worldbuilding is amazing too. Leckie has written a number of short stories set in other parts of this world, focused on other gods and humans and cultures, so you can take a look at those if you want a bit of a taste of the world. I've bookmarked them here: https://pinboard.in/u:sophia_sol/t:~godsverse/

Edited (just fixing a typo!) 2022-01-30 18:44 (UTC)

See, this is why when the official descriptions of things don't work for me, I ask my friends why they love a story--it's always so much more convincing than the official summaries! This does make it sound very interesting! I may have to give it another shot! Thank you so much!

One last question: was there a certain point in the narrative where the story kind of clicked for you and you started loving it? Or did you love it all along?

(I have watched several shows where I was unimpressed with the first few episodes and would have given up on them, but people whose taste I trust say, "Hold on until episode 4, that's when it gets good, and it gets SO good!" and I'm always glad I held on! I wonder if this book may be like that?)

Oh hooray, I'm glad my explanation is interesting!

I think the point where I found myself really engaged was page 18 (in the paperback I have at least). There was a line where I just went OOOOH! and it gave me a framework from which to be really interested in this story specifically. But for me, because I came at the book already an enormous fan of Ann Leckie's short stories in this world and was PUMPED for a full-length novel in that world, I came already primed to enjoy the story. So like, I was there for it to some degree from the beginning, but for reasons outside what this specific novel is doing. So it might be different for other readers!

I think the book IS good from the beginning, but the reader needs....a bit of time to get their head around it to be able to appreciate it? Maybe? So like, I would encourage the reader to hold on a bit even if the beginning doesn't immediately appeal!

But then again, not every book is for everyone, and I'm a big fan of giving up on books that aren't working for me :P And just because I love this book doesn't mean it's going to be everyone's cup of tea. But I just love how much it's interested in point of view and perspective and how that affects the way a story is told! And that is by its nature going to be a thing that also turns other people away from it.

Definitely second Midnight Robber! It's stunningly vibrant and does such fun things with folktales. Quite heavy in parts, though -- if you feel you might like a list of CWs, lmk!

Thank you! I appreciate that! I'm usually okay with whatever--I can't think of anything that I really need to be warned about beyond "this goes dark/heavy." I like to know it's going to be a dark journey, but the specifics don't tend to matter too much? If that makes sense?

I read the Imperial Radch series and liked it, but I found The Raven Tower impossible to read. :/

Coldfire (trilogy) or Malazan Book of the Fallen (fair warning, this one is both long and can be very grizzly, but it's not a gorefest for gorefest's sake even when it turns violent, but it's explicitly not grimdark).

Have you read Arabesk?

Edited 2022-01-30 18:21 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I do want to read Coldfire when I can find some secondhand copies of it! They don't have it at my libraries, so I need to keep my eyes open in bookstores. And I like books that are dark but not grimdark!

I'm not familiar with Arabesk. Looked it up--are you talking about the series by Grimwood?

Boo, they should at least have the digital versions at the libraries. Malazan is very good, but god it's long. If you ever give it a try, read Memories of Ice first, I think that's a better introduction than Gardens of the Moon (you can start with any of the first five books, they then start coming together).

Ah yes, Grimwood. But it might be too scifi than what you're looking for. I found it interesting, but I think I read it 15 years ago.

Have you read the Daevabad trilogy? That's also good (it has pacing issues in the third book but super interesting worldbuilding).

I read the first Daevabad book and it didn't work for me. I did think the worldbuilding was interesting, but I wasn't impressed by the characters.

I totally understand if you don't feel like giving it a second chance, but I too felt very 'eh' about the first book, read the second book anyway, and was all THIS! THIS IS GREAT! So if you ever feel the urge for second chances, I thought book two was awesome. Much more detailed worldbuilding, more compelling character arcs, and just a general level-up in terms of the mechanics -- often the case with second novels, I find!

Okay, that is good to know! Because I liked the ~atmosphere~ of the book but felt nothing for it beyond that. Have you read the third one too and does it end satisfactorily?

Also: the Malazan books don't have to be read in order? I had no idea!

Re: Daevabad, ah that's too bad but yeah, it's maybe not for everyone.

Re: Malazan, they do.....sorta. So the first five can be read in any order you like (Gardens of the Moon and Memories of Ice have some very minor continuity, but nothing you wouldn't understand), because they introduce different characters and narrative strands that are then started to be woven together starting in The Bonehunters. The groundwork laid before that were it interlinks becomes apparent only later, so even if you don't catch some of the references it doesn't really matter hugely.

I read them all in publication order, because I read them as they were released, but the topic with Gardens of the Moon specifically is that it was written about a decade before publication and also a decade before the others (it was initially an RPG campaign), and while it was edited before publication, the tone and overall vibe is ever so slightly different and I actually like the later books more. If you want to keep that in mind I'd say totally go for correct order! I have friends who also read this in order and were happy with it, but imo Memories of Ice is a good start as well (Deadhouse Gates is an option and a terrific book but for story reasons might leave the wrong impression).

But if you can easily get Gardens of the Moon, go for it!

Thanks! That's so helpful!

My favorite fantasy series that weirdly nobody seems to have read is Samuel Delany's Neveryon cycle. Sort of Conan-esque fantasy, except with much more complicated worldbuilding that is deeply aware of race and cultural pressures, while still being interested in the questions of heroism and desire from Conan. And also it's Delany so it's full of delicious metafiction and telling and retelling the same stories in different new ways.

Also it's deeply flawed but there are things in Ken Liu's The Grace of Kings, especially just the epic sweep of history, that I haven't seen pulled off in any other fantasy novel.

I haven't ever heard of that one! That sounds fun, thank you!

I haven't gotten to Liu yet but that is exciting to hear!

Random question since I don't have any recs in this area off the top of my head: what does "second world" mean? I'm guessing it means just, like, a made-up world instead of being set in our own, but I hadn't heard the term before and when I googled I just got a bunch of stuff about WWII!

Yeah, it's a made-up world. Lord of the Rings is a second world fantasy, Harry Potter is not!

Gotcha! Did you read The Priory of the Orange Tree? I've got a copy but haven't gotten to it because I'm seldom in the mood for this genre, but I heard some vague good things about that one!

I haven't--I'm intimidated by how freaking long it is! Why didn't they split it into two books???

I am oddly encouraged by the idea that a book can still be terrifyingly gigantic in this day and age, but also, it’s definitely the thing that’s stopped me from starting it so far. 😂😱 ONE DAY!

I am oddly encouraged by the idea that a book can still be terrifyingly gigantic in this day and age

True! I mean, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is one of my favorite books published this century so far, so it's not like I'm totally against long books!

Hmm looking back at the more serious secondary world adult fantasies I've read:

The Rook and Rose series by M A Carrick - very enjoyable books set in a sorta Venetian inspired fantasy world with tarot magic and sooo much great identity porn. I really enjoyed The Mask of Mirrors and found the sequel The Liar's Knot even better.
The Jasmine Throne by Tasha Suri - I feel like Suri isn't used to writing a series instead of standalones yet (this had more different POVs than it really needed), but this was still filled with her signature complicated female characters who wield power in different ways and great worldbuilding.

I think I was under the impression that the Carrick series was YA, which I avoid these days unless explicitly recommended to me by someone who knows my tastes. But if it's adult, I will add it to my list! Thank you!

I haven't read the Jasmine Throne yet! But I really enjoyed Suri's first book and thought the second one was pretty good even if I didn't enjoy it as much. I definitely do need to read this one at some point.

Ooh! Susann Cokal's Mermaid Moon. And, if your definition of second world includes multiple universes/multiverses, Natasha Pulley's The Kingdoms.

I just put Mermaid Moon on hold at the library!

I haven't read The Kingdoms yet--I think I thought it was the sequel to Watchmaker and hadn't had time to reread that one? Butapparently it is not! Thank you!

I hope you like it! There's a lot about it that I think will appeal.

The Kingdoms actually has nothing to do with Pulley's other books! (Which came as a total surprise to me...and I think she cleverly set the plot and teasers up as red herrings in that regard.) It may slightly stretch your definition of "second world" for reasons I don't want to spoil, but it definitely hits the good characterization, serious tone, and worldbuilding notes.

Have you read Adrian Tchaikovsky? Read Adrian Tchaikovsky! All his fantasy hits every note you want.

If you want just one book, Guns of the Dawn. It's not as worldbuilding-heavy as his series books, but it's excellent. It's set on a fantasy world loosely based on Napoleonic times but with magic, in which the heroine's country has been entangled in a war that drags on so long and bloodily that they start drafting women.

My top rec would be his Echoes of the Fall trilogy. It's set in a fascinating world which is loosely Iron Age America with shapeshifting. Fantastic cultural worldbuilding, great characters.

Shadows of the Apt is fantastic but it's a ten-volume series. I wish there was even more of it. Everyone is divided into bug-based clans (kinden) and has bug-based attributes and powers. They're also either Apt (can use technology) or Inapt (can use magic). This has some of the best worldbuilding I've ever read and great long character arcs.

I read half of the first book of the spider scifi series and admired it very much but didn't really get ~into it~. I didn't make a decision not to finish it, I just kind of wandered away from it? I don't think I was aware that he even wrote fantasy as well! I will start with Guns of the Dawn, then, thank you!

I highly recommend Kate Elliott's Crossroads trilogy. This is secondary world epic fantasy inspired by the history of east and central Asia in the Middle Ages, and it is absolutely the most exquisite interrogation/examination of the 'chosen hero saves kingdom and becomes its rightful ruler' trope that I've ever read.

Elliott's epic fantasy series are all great, but this one is my very favourite.

it is absolutely the most exquisite interrogation/examination of the 'chosen hero saves kingdom and becomes its rightful ruler' trope that I've ever read.

Oooooooh! YES! Sign me up!

Have you read Silvia Moreno-García's 2-world fantasy, The Beautiful Ones? I really enjoy it for its aesthetic and its characters, and it has the most beauuuutiful cover. And entomology!

I have not! I admired Mexican Gothic more than I actually enjoyed it, but I am willing to give her another chance. Thank you!

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