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she who became the sun: some thoughts (sans capitals because xposted from tumblr)
+ so there's only two books in the series, right? finally a series i want to be a million books...and it's only two!
+ wow this book is so so queer. i don’t think there’s a single other fantasy novel that has such a wide-ranging, nuanced exploration of gender as this one. i can’t think of another. literally every main character (zhu, ouyang, wang, ma) struggles with what society expects of them gender-wise and the limits of what they are able to be. sure, it’s way more extreme for someone like zhu or ouyang than it is for wang or especially ma, but all of them have to face the question of: what do societal gender roles tell me i should be? to what extent can i obey those roles? to what extent is it possible for me to defy them?
+ i saw zhu called a trans character, and while i do think she’s good trans representation, i don’t think her experience of gender fits into the contemporary definition of being transgender. more gnc? honestly, she has one of the most complex approaches to gender hat i’ve ever seen. so much of it--all of it?--is circumstantial, experiential. if she were alive today i think she’d use she/they pronouns tbh. but the fact is that she’s never been able to consider for a moment what she actually wants or who she would be if she could be totally true to herself. she doesn’t have space--or time--for that in her life.
+ i love that zhu is ace but still enjoys giving someone else pleasure. i do think it’s interesting to ask whether her asexuality is inherent or if it’s because of how she’s just tamped down on it for so long that she can no longer experience it. it doesn’t matter, and i don’t think she’d ever waste time pondering that question, but it’s a question that just naturally arises out of observing her.
+ ouyang/esen is the most classic version of the “do i want to be with him or be him?” trope that i have seen in a long, long time. ouyang’s relationship with masculinity is SO fascinating and while he’s clearly drawn to esen because of the way he embodies masculinity, i don’t think he knows whether it’s something he wants to be or to be near. he wants it to transform him from what he is, though. because he hates what he is.
+ having him be LITERALLY followed around by a cloud of ghosts and having it physically affect the world around him is just one of the best worldbuilding details i’ve seen in years.
+ i won’t lie: the desire to woobify zhu, ouyang, AND lord wang is strong. they’re all terrible people! but we see why they’re terrible people and we understand them. and...could any of them be anything else and still have survived?
+ OBSESSED with how lord wang full-on embraces nanren values and virtues when he could have tried to fit in with mongol society more. the fact that he refuses to do that even though NO ONE IN MONGOL SOCIETY (particularly his brother and uncle) is in any way capable of appreciating his prodigious talents and accomplishments makes me weak at the knees. like, he’s right: without him, their corner of the empire would crumble. he is absolutely vital--he makes their province flourish and the war could not possibly continue without him. but mongol society still has a nomadic view of the world with no place for the appreciation of administration/bureaucracy. it’s fascinating to me that if he had been born one dynasty before or one dynasty after, he would be lauded, but he’s stuck here in late yuan dynasty hell where he’s considered a failure as a man.
+ also fascinating to me that so many generations into a sedentary lifestyle, the mongols still haven’t been able to internalize how important administration actually is. i have to think it’s because they associate it so deeply with their old enemies the song dynasty that they’re in a form of denial about it.
+ wang and ouyang should be able to understand each other because they both fall short of what their culture demands masculinity-wise. but they fall short in opposite ways: wang through actions, ouyang through his physical body. because of this, they can’t see all the ways they’re alike. ouyang resents wang for being “whole” but refusing to even try to do what a man “should” do; wang is jealous that ouyang’s martial skills have won him the respect (even affection) of esen.
+ love that ma’s emotional arc is learning to want things for herself and to be angry--two things that women in patriarchal cultures are never supposed to do. she embraces both.
+ not sure about her decision in the end, but eager to see more about why she made it.
+ this may be me imposing a western view onto something i fail to understand, but to me, it’s such a great choice to have zhu spend her formative years in a monastery. like, i know it had to be that way because of actual historical events, but from my pov it’s just so fitting. taking religious orders that involve celibacy is a way of stepping outside of the straightforward patriarchal roles of father-mother son-daughter, etc. it’s a place where you leave behind the expectations of your assigned gender and do something other (something literally otherworldly). it’s like this perfect liminal space for zhu to come of age in.
+ i am not educated enough to fully understand the nuances of the way parker-chan portrays fate in this book, but as a sworn member of team free will, i loved what i was picking up on. claiming fate/defying fate/stealing fate??? fate in western fantasy is always so boring. this is not at all boring. i didn’t think i could be genuinely fascinated by a chosen one narrative but this story troubles that so much. like...the mandate of heaven is a literal thing? but multiple people have it? it’s so juicy!
+ ZHU AND OUYANG’S SOULBOND. GIVE ME MORE OF THAT. i just need them to have more direct interactions in the next book.
+ wow this book is so so queer. i don’t think there’s a single other fantasy novel that has such a wide-ranging, nuanced exploration of gender as this one. i can’t think of another. literally every main character (zhu, ouyang, wang, ma) struggles with what society expects of them gender-wise and the limits of what they are able to be. sure, it’s way more extreme for someone like zhu or ouyang than it is for wang or especially ma, but all of them have to face the question of: what do societal gender roles tell me i should be? to what extent can i obey those roles? to what extent is it possible for me to defy them?
+ i saw zhu called a trans character, and while i do think she’s good trans representation, i don’t think her experience of gender fits into the contemporary definition of being transgender. more gnc? honestly, she has one of the most complex approaches to gender hat i’ve ever seen. so much of it--all of it?--is circumstantial, experiential. if she were alive today i think she’d use she/they pronouns tbh. but the fact is that she’s never been able to consider for a moment what she actually wants or who she would be if she could be totally true to herself. she doesn’t have space--or time--for that in her life.
+ i love that zhu is ace but still enjoys giving someone else pleasure. i do think it’s interesting to ask whether her asexuality is inherent or if it’s because of how she’s just tamped down on it for so long that she can no longer experience it. it doesn’t matter, and i don’t think she’d ever waste time pondering that question, but it’s a question that just naturally arises out of observing her.
+ ouyang/esen is the most classic version of the “do i want to be with him or be him?” trope that i have seen in a long, long time. ouyang’s relationship with masculinity is SO fascinating and while he’s clearly drawn to esen because of the way he embodies masculinity, i don’t think he knows whether it’s something he wants to be or to be near. he wants it to transform him from what he is, though. because he hates what he is.
+ having him be LITERALLY followed around by a cloud of ghosts and having it physically affect the world around him is just one of the best worldbuilding details i’ve seen in years.
+ i won’t lie: the desire to woobify zhu, ouyang, AND lord wang is strong. they’re all terrible people! but we see why they’re terrible people and we understand them. and...could any of them be anything else and still have survived?
+ OBSESSED with how lord wang full-on embraces nanren values and virtues when he could have tried to fit in with mongol society more. the fact that he refuses to do that even though NO ONE IN MONGOL SOCIETY (particularly his brother and uncle) is in any way capable of appreciating his prodigious talents and accomplishments makes me weak at the knees. like, he’s right: without him, their corner of the empire would crumble. he is absolutely vital--he makes their province flourish and the war could not possibly continue without him. but mongol society still has a nomadic view of the world with no place for the appreciation of administration/bureaucracy. it’s fascinating to me that if he had been born one dynasty before or one dynasty after, he would be lauded, but he’s stuck here in late yuan dynasty hell where he’s considered a failure as a man.
+ also fascinating to me that so many generations into a sedentary lifestyle, the mongols still haven’t been able to internalize how important administration actually is. i have to think it’s because they associate it so deeply with their old enemies the song dynasty that they’re in a form of denial about it.
+ wang and ouyang should be able to understand each other because they both fall short of what their culture demands masculinity-wise. but they fall short in opposite ways: wang through actions, ouyang through his physical body. because of this, they can’t see all the ways they’re alike. ouyang resents wang for being “whole” but refusing to even try to do what a man “should” do; wang is jealous that ouyang’s martial skills have won him the respect (even affection) of esen.
+ love that ma’s emotional arc is learning to want things for herself and to be angry--two things that women in patriarchal cultures are never supposed to do. she embraces both.
+ not sure about her decision in the end, but eager to see more about why she made it.
+ this may be me imposing a western view onto something i fail to understand, but to me, it’s such a great choice to have zhu spend her formative years in a monastery. like, i know it had to be that way because of actual historical events, but from my pov it’s just so fitting. taking religious orders that involve celibacy is a way of stepping outside of the straightforward patriarchal roles of father-mother son-daughter, etc. it’s a place where you leave behind the expectations of your assigned gender and do something other (something literally otherworldly). it’s like this perfect liminal space for zhu to come of age in.
+ i am not educated enough to fully understand the nuances of the way parker-chan portrays fate in this book, but as a sworn member of team free will, i loved what i was picking up on. claiming fate/defying fate/stealing fate??? fate in western fantasy is always so boring. this is not at all boring. i didn’t think i could be genuinely fascinated by a chosen one narrative but this story troubles that so much. like...the mandate of heaven is a literal thing? but multiple people have it? it’s so juicy!
+ ZHU AND OUYANG’S SOULBOND. GIVE ME MORE OF THAT. i just need them to have more direct interactions in the next book.
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Lord Wang my precious cinnamon roll woobie who does nothing wrong uwu. I promise I jest >.> <.<
In any case, he makes me think of Arkady Martine and AMCE — he’s like the inverse of Mahit, isn’t he? The imperialist who “goes native” but never ever to the extent of giving up their power or truly identifying with the oppressed. He’s just so deeply written and I MUST think he has a role to play in the next book.
Right there with you on Ma’s choice — I am dubious! But I think we are meant to be! Very interested to see where this goes, and also quite convinced by the relationship as a whole. THIS one made me think of Tasha Suri’s The Jasmine Throne, where the main wlw relationship, which also involves an imperial claimant, is IMO the weakest part of the novel — I think what’s different here is that they truly have something genuine to offer each other that is not only political.
Lastly, ZHU. Omg. I’m a she/they/everything feels vaguely icky kinda person myself, and Zhu was just!!!!! So much. If I ever meet SPC I must offer my thanks in the profusest possible terms. The way in which Zhu identifies with (sometimes as?) a woman because of the awfulness and omnipresence of patriarchy and what it does to all souls under it, despite having no innate attachment to anything about womanhood, rang so true to me, personally. Like, you can’t *escape* it. SPC handled that so deftly — one is never in doubt about Zhu’s feelings and identifications, only about the plausibility of gender liberation swiftly and in our times while under patriarchy, which, WOOOF.
Lee Mandelo described Zhu’s sexuality as “stone,” which I thought was also an interesting take, and juxtaposing that idea and your ace reading is giving me good tangent thoughts about stoneness and aceness and desire, so thanks!
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The imperialist who “goes native” but never ever to the extent of giving up their power or truly identifying with the oppressed.
Yes!
I still haven't gotten around to The Jasmine Throne yet, but I'm looking forward to it. I like Suri a lot.
The way in which Zhu identifies with (sometimes as?) a woman because of the awfulness and omnipresence of patriarchy and what it does to all souls under it, despite having no innate attachment to anything about womanhood, rang so true to me, personally.
Yeah, I totally get that. I've always viewed gender as something that I experience rather than anything innate in myself--like, if I was raised by aliens with no human conception of gender, I would just be a person. Gender is something that's a part of me because I have been treated my whole life as a girl/woman, but it's not a real *thing*. I respect the experiences of people who experience gender dysphoria, but I don't understand it. So I really related to the way that Zhu seems to feel that gender is just...an annoyance and can't we all get over this? Shouldn't this be irrelevant?
Lee Mandelo described Zhu’s sexuality as “stone,” which I thought was also an interesting take, and juxtaposing that idea and your ace reading is giving me good tangent thoughts about stoneness and aceness and desire, so thanks!
Oooh interesting!