lirazel | (no subject)

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Sudden thought:

Is it possible that with television getting better and more prestige-like, it's draining the format of the very things that made TV fandom so fun???

Like I think about the best (by best I mean most active and interesting) TV fandoms I know of and they're like BtVS obviously and classic Trek and the X-Files and Doctor Who and those shows are all really great and iconic but also really, really messy? And sprawling and hence fun to explore? And they have monster of the week episodes and plotlines that get dropped or not fully developed and maybe that's why they inspired good fandoms?

I love The Expanse. I love Black Sails. They are so very, very good. But I have never felt the need to look for fic for either one of them. Is it because they're so tightly written?

Is it possible that the TV is so good now that I don't need fanfic? And if so...where can I find some good-but-also-messy TV again? It seems like that only exists in comedies (like, idk, Schitt's Creek or something), but I am not really super into comedies? I enjoy watching some of them, but they have never made me feel fannish. I need something speculative (or at least far away from the my real life like The West Wing or something) with an interesting world and enough loose ends to run wild.

I think I may be on to something with this. I need to think about it further...

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I know what you mean! The fandoms I tend to get into are usually TV shows that are good-but-messy, very much so.

But, equally, clearly this isn't what works for everyone else - plenty of people are into much tighter TV. (There's certainly plenty of people writing Black Sails.) And Good Omens was pretty tight and that didn't stop fandom losing its heart to it for a whole year or so, with only 6 eps and a book. So, I think it's probably a personal thing, really.

Also, while British TV is a whole other matter (what with our lack of budget to make anything but short seasons and few of those), it seems to me that there's still 'messy' TV coming out of the old networks, whereas the 'prestige' TV is mostly the streaming stuff.

And, yeah, I think a lot of fandom is centred around big/messy franchises like MCU and Star Wars, too for those reasons.

For current or relatively recent 'messy' TV (not necessarily as recs, because I have no idea whether you'd be into any of them) but certainly all of these clicked or nearly clicked in that sense and as fandoms for me and seem pretty popular as fandoms generally). I think part of it tends to be if it's seen as low-brow and has a lot of episodes in a series still, partly.

1. CW's ongoing Arrowverse (Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow, Batwoman)
2. Once Upon a Time & Once Upon a Time in Wonderland
3. Lucifer (which is also techincally part of #1 although turned posher with a Netflix upgrade for S4, but simultaneously left two random existing pre-filmed S4 eps in a timeless limbo)
4. Timeless (for bonus, it got cancelled, uncancelled and cancelled again, playing havoc with their planned arcs)
5. The Librarians
6. Doctor Who, of course, continues to be Doctor Who and has just retconned everything. (Like, literally everything. I am unhappy.)
(I haven't watched The Magicians, but I suspect it would also count. Also Game of Thrones, ditto, pretty much certainly, despite being streaming. I'm pretty sure there are loads of other things, too.)

(I kind of suspect most things with 20+ eps or so would count, especially in the more sff end of things.)

But streaming does mean that there is a lot more TV (especially in the US; we just have less, except we also will have access to the US's at some point), it gets released all at once, so no week-by-week waiting (and screaming over everything), which means a big part of fandom tends to be this weird short-term migratory creature.

It's interesting, though!

Edited 2020-05-13 17:11 (UTC)

I completely agree with your remark about manner of release: I think so much of what made TV fandoms so big is not just the sprawl or imperfections, but the (previously) inherently serialized nature of the storytelling. Even in shows that have miniseries stylings but still release in "seasons" (Sherlock is the one that I remember this most clearly in) seem to have similar upwellings of content during those breaks. One sees this across the biggest book fandoms as well -- was not a heyday of the Harry Potter fandom in the enormous gap between OOTP and the last two? Did not Twilight in part thrive because of its nature as a series?

It provides a built-in timeline, gaps between installments that foster speculation and curiosity, and of course, the gap-filler!

I think there may also be something to be said about the choking press of the adaptation/remake -- it's hard to get as excited about something you were excited about when they did it better the first time ten years ago. (Good Omens may be the exception that proves the rule).

I think y'all are dead on about this, and it makes me miss the days of waiting between episodes.

I think there may also be something to be said about the choking press of the adaptation/remake -- it's hard to get as excited about something you were excited about when they did it better the first time ten years ago

Also very true.

Maybe one day people will start serializing again! I mean, I know webseries still do, sometimes. And in the meantime people still don’t drop a four-book series all at once, so maybe... *holds out hope*

Yeah, I actually wouldn't be shocked if it happened? Serialization seems like such a fundamental part of television that I can see it shifting back to that.

On the other hand: most early novels were initially published serially, and that seems to have fallen completely by the wayside, so...maybe not.

But I really miss that anticipation of waiting for a week to find out what was going to happen next, and the more I think about it, the more important I think that was for the creation of fandom communities and conversation.

plenty of people are into much tighter TV. (There's certainly plenty of people writing Black Sails.) And Good Omens was pretty tight and that didn't stop fandom losing its heart to it for a whole year or so, with only 6 eps and a book. So, I think it's probably a personal thing, really.

True! Different people are drawn to different things, of course. I was probably projecting a bit since I am more drawn to good-but-messy.

I am so picky about tv! I have thought about getting into Lucifer--I have wondered if I'd really like that one.

it gets released all at once, so no week-by-week waiting (and screaming over everything), which means a big part of fandom tends to be this weird short-term migratory creature.

Excellent point.

Hmm. I have always had shows that I am fannish about, and others that I am not. And a lot of it is to do with how much wiggle room there is within canon. Oh! One sec, I literally wrote an essay about this WAY back when.

Ta-daa:

Essay: What entertainment genres inspire fanfiction and why

:)

Edited 2020-05-13 17:17 (UTC)

Wow! You wrote that so many years ago! I'm delighted!

And I agree with so much of it too. Especially this bit:

And - the wider the verse, the more possibilities for fanfic. I think it is no coincidence that the stories inspiring the most fanfic tend to be either sci-fi or fantasy.

Wow! You wrote that so many years ago! I'm delighted!
Can be filed under 'there is nothing new in fandom'. ;)

And I agree with so much of it too. Especially this bit:
Yup, I remembered that I brought up something like that, hence the link. Because it's a fascinating avenue to delve into.

That is an interesting observation. It really depends on the shows, the type of genre, the appeal to younger or older audiences, etc. I wouldn’t expect fandom activity in international prestige shows, typically but who knows.

I remember engaging with fandom for my favorite movies and shows during my high school to uni days. Right now? Not so much for me.

I enjoyed the big four comedies in the Schurverse: the office, parks and rec, b99, and the good place. But I don’t search for fanfics, they’re well written enough.

I’d expect more comedy fics in a spy comedy film fandom, not too much angst but you’d be surprised.

I wouldn’t expect fandom activity in international prestige shows, typically but who knows.

Who knows! I am not on twitter and my tumblr experience is so narrowly curated , so I miss a lot of what's going on with fandom these days. It's easy to miss out on stuff!

Yeah, it depends on the platform where the fandom is more or less active. Overall there are multiple answers for this.

This is an interesting point! I have definitely noticed that something in the quality of TV now really makes me much more content to just sit back and let the story happen and only really engage on a, like, reblogging-gifsets level rather than as a more active participant. I think you make a great point that all those iconic fandoms of yesteryear really had a messy element that made it feel easy to jump in somehow.

Now I am pondering what, exactly, it is that motivates me to actually write fic for something as opposed to just being content with canon and not feeling motivated to jump into some version of that world myself, so thank you for giving me something to ruminate on, hee! I think it is usually either that canon is missing something that seems really full of potential to me and I just have to wander down the path of How It Would Go (typically, people who should be in love, obviously, but also maddening canon writing decisions that seem to lack logic or emotional truth), but also occasionally it's just that the ship is so wonderful that even though everything in canon is satisfying, I just want to spend more time with them. (The first ones that came to mind for me re: that vibe that are currently pretty popular are Eve/Villanelle and Crowley/Aziraphale, which are somehow the most different two ships you could ever imagine, but also weirdly same in my psyche??)

I have definitely noticed that something in the quality of TV now really makes me much more content to just sit back and let the story happen and only really engage on a, like, reblogging-gifsets level rather than as a more active participant.

Yes, this is how I feel about some of the shows I've most enjoyed in the past few years.

I think it is usually either that canon is missing something that seems really full of potential to me and I just have to wander down the path of How It Would Go...but also occasionally it's just that the ship is so wonderful that even though everything in canon is satisfying, I just want to spend more time with them.

True!

I've definitely read somewhere before that the most fertile fandoms tend to be for works that are good enough to make someone enthusiastic about it (whether it be through a cool concept, interesting characters, etc.) but also has flaws that make you want to tinker around with it. The few fandoms that have actually inspired me to write fics for definitely fall into this bucket. The only exceptions I can think of is something like White Christmas, where I have some minor quibbles but overall think it's brilliant, but it's so short that I'm dying for more content about these characters.

good enough to make someone enthusiastic about it (whether it be through a cool concept, interesting characters, etc.) but also has flaws that make you want to tinker around with it.

That's exactly what I was trying to get at!

The only exceptions I can think of is something like White Christmas, where I have some minor quibbles but overall think it's brilliant, but it's so short that I'm dying for more content about these characters.

God, yes. That's a really good examples.

"Is it possible that the TV is so good now that I don't need fanfic? And if so...where can I find some good-but-also-messy TV again?"

I also want to posit that there is just more of everything these days. People are spread out in a way that they didn't used to be, and so don't congregate around the two or three shows that have something to offer.

Perhaps this is also reflected in the generalized balkanization of Western internet-based transformative fandom these days -- as flawed as tumblr was, it was the LJ replacement, and nothing has replaced it. So ye olde migratory slash fandoms, while still influential, just don't migrate as quickly or as effectively across platforms anymore.

Yes, yes, that's very true! The endless amounts of content make the fandoms much smaller.

So ye olde migratory slash fandoms, while still influential, just don't migrate as quickly or as effectively across platforms anymore.

Also very true. And this is my cue to express my never-failing hope that fandom will find a new platform soon. Or just come back to DW.

Don't know if it's just me, but I find it much harder to be fanficcy in a world where tv is not episodic.

So many shows used to be single episodes each with their own plotline (and an overarching narrative somewhere in the background), and I found it left so much scope for my brain to be fannish. Whereas, when a tv show is basically a 16-hour movie in disguise, my brain doesn't find it as fanficcable.

Yes, yes, I think that's definitely a really important part of it. The combination of all these things--TV being more tightly-written, there being so much more content now, etc.--have really combined in ways that are changing fandom fundamentally from what I'm familiar with.

I have seen a lot of people say this over the years — not just in relation to TV shows, but that in general they find it hard to create fanworks if they feel a canon is pretty much close to perfect. I've seen this sentiment repeated enough that I know it must be the norm, and it's yet again another instance where I'm out of step with fandom, because for me it's always been the opposite.

Watching/reading something with really glaring flaws doesn't make me yearn to write fic to fix the flaws, or seek out other people's fanworks to see how they fixed them: it just lowers my fannish enthusiasm, and that canon ends up being something that is briefly diverting and enjoyable while I'm reading or watching it, to be forgotten immediately afterwards. Whereas if I think something is pretty much close to perfect, I'm yearning to write and read post-canon fic so that the story doesn't end.

This might just be that post-canon fic is generally my favourite thing to read and write. Or maybe there's a sweet spot in which shows need to exist — good enough to inspire fannish interest, messy enough to leave fanwriters with something to work with.

I also agree with other commenters here in that episodic TV that is released one episode per week (often at different times in different regions) is more likely to inspire fic as people try to fill in the gaps while they wait for the next installment of canon, whereas streaming TV that's released all in one go can be consumed immediately without the need to use fic to fill the void while waiting. And I guess that goes for book fandoms as well — weren't book fandoms like Harry Potter at their most active when there was a long gap between publication of the various books in the series?

That's interesting!

good enough to inspire fannish interest, messy enough to leave fanwriters with something to work with.

Perfectly said! To me, it's all about that sweet spot. I'm picky about TV--I have to genuinely enjoy it and be satisfied by it on one level in order to keep watching it, but to be fannish about it, there's got to be another level where it seems lacking, you know?

weren't book fandoms like Harry Potter at their most active when there was a long gap between publication of the various books in the series?

Oh, definitely.

I think you might be onto something! I also think there's something to like...the show feeling more prestige makes it more removed from fandom, like it's not for us.

Oh yes! I would never have thought to put it that way, but...yes!

I think you're right that the "messier" canons can inspire the biggest fandoms, but I wouldn't say there's any less of that around than there used to be. Sure, there's lots of prestige TV but there's plenty that would fall into the messy category too. Another feature of the fandoms you've mentioned is that they're all long-running. Prestige TV tends to be more contained, so maybe there's just not as much time for a big sprawling fandom to develop.

Oooh, yes, I think you're right about the long-running being part of it. And maybe there is a ton of messy TV out there right now, but I'm so overwhelmed by all the prestige TV that I feel like I should be watching that I'm just not ending up there? There's just so much. There are about a million shows on my to-watch list and the list never seems to get any shorter.

There's just so much TV in general, yeah! I know I'm never going to get around to watching everything I might be interested in.

Oh, I've often thought that! (Sorry for v belated comment.) Or at least very different fandom. Perfect + tight = I want to write meta. Excellent + messy = I want to write fic.

Perfect + tight = I want to write meta. Excellent + messy = I want to write fic.

That's such a good way of summing it up!

A lot of meta for things like BtVS was about trying to work out the continuity that just wasn't there. It's so satisfying when a show has thought all that stuff through and you can just enjoy all the parallels, foreshadowing, etc.

Hey, just wandering over here from

lebateleur's journal!

I think another factor that helps messy canons inspire big fandoms is not just the desire to fix what's broken, but also a sense among (mostly) amateur writers that they can do just as well, if not better, than the canon writers. A show that's too good can be intimidating to try to add anything to. And that's not an entirely new thing, either -- back in the 90s I remember people in complaining that Homicide: Life on the Street should have tons of fic because it was so great, and others saying they loved the show but didn't think they could write well enough to do it justice, so they didn't try.

Mind if I add you? It looks like we have some interests in common. :)

but also a sense among (mostly) amateur writers that they can do just as well, if not better, than the canon writers

I know this feeling intimately. I can't count the number of times I thought, "I could handle this plot twist/character arc better than the writers!" and proceeded to try to prove it.

A show that's too good can be intimidating to try to add anything to.

True!

I am always up for new friends! Added you. :D

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