lirazel | this is proof of how american i am that i never considered this until i started watching foreign TV

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not-so-stupid question for my flist

this is proof of how american i am that i never considered this until i started watching foreign TV

So in watching so much Korean TV, I've noticed that they often have characters who are supposed to be USAmerican, but as soon as the actor opens his mouth (I haven't seen this with any ladies yet), it's very clear from his accent that he is not in fact USAmerican. The American boyfriend on Creating Destiny can barely speak English intelligibly (I cannot for the life of me figure out what his accent is, though. It drives me craaazy because I'm usually halfway decent at least placing what general region people are from), which is funny considering that the main actress's character supposedly grew up in Australia, but said main actress speaks English with a decidedly American accent.

Now, of course this really doesn't matter that much, since they're making the show for Korean viewers. But now whenever I watch an American show or movie that has someone speaking a foreign language, I always wonder if that actor actually sounds like where they're supposed to be from or if it's as ridiculous-sounding to natives of whatever country as these "American" characters are to me. I know we tend to be notoriously bad at depictions of other English-language accents (various British ones, Australian, etc.), so I imagine this is the case for depictions of other languages as well.

So for those of you on my flist (I know there are quite a few!), can you answer? Do you wince when American shows/TV depict your native language? We in the United States have greater diversity than South Korea does and lots of immigrants to boot, so in some ways I imagine it could easier for us to find a halfway decent actor who can speak a language if we really want to. On the other hand, we are sooooo...what's the word for ethnocentric but for nations instead of ethnicities? Whatever that word is, USAmericans are it. I imagine that even if we could find someone with a little effort, we probably don't put for that effort very often. I could be wrong about that, though. I would love to be wrong about that. ~~I doubt I'm wrong about that.~~

Anyone have any anecdotes?

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All I know is I find Robin's "Canadian" accent during the flashbacks on How I Met Your Mother both hilarious and an absurd interpretation of our accent (otherwise, though, Robin is actually a fairly down-to-earth portrayal of a Canadian - some people really do love hockey and beer that much). I have yet to hear a "Canadian" accent on American television that isn't ludicrous and over-the-top.

Robin's so awesome, I feel like it would be a compliment for any nation to claim her. :D

I kind of think that the show is aware of how bad her accent is and that they kind of play it up? I mean, even I can tell how horrible it is, and I feel like they play it for laughs. But I imagine most of the time when it's serious, it drives you crazy. I know it drives me crazy when I hear allegedly "Southern" accents.

Yeah, Robin's accent is exaggerated on purpose. Cobie Smulders actually IS Canadian. :)

America is like an island. Even Canadian and Mexican culture are off the radar and a place like Korea is invisible unless Republicans want to bomb it.

When I watch American teevee with Spanish speaking characters, the accents are occasionally terrible. Gus Fring on Breaking Bad -- a very well done show -- can not be taken seriously as a Chilean when I have to listen to him try to speak. And Spanish is hardly a foreign language; ten percent of the country speaks it fluently and prefers to speak it over English.

I can only imagine how bad the Russian or Chinese on teevee is.

As for Korean, the government figures that only 300,000 people in the world of non-Korean ancestry speak credible Korean. It has to be very hard to pick teevee stars out of that tiny population and sometimes nationality will have to slide in favor of acting or good looks.

And on the matter of English, there are accents that I can't make out as an American. Whenever I tried watching Life On Mars, the Mancunian was unintelligible. So just imagine the English speaking Koreans are all from Manchester.

American culture (if not specific Americans) do tend to view other cultures as alien--like, from another planet alien. On the plus side, I don't think we'll be bombing South Korea any time soon.

And Spanish is hardly a foreign language; ten percent of the country speaks it fluently and prefers to speak it over English.

This is true. I would think that we would be decent at Spanish-speaking characters, at least. In your experience, do they sound authentically native-speaking--just not from the specific area/country they're supposed to be from--or do they not sound right at all? Like, is the character supposed to be from Honduras but sounds like she's from Mexico? That type of thing?

can only imagine how bad the Russian or Chinese on teevee is.

I hear you.

the government figures that only 300,000 people in the world of non-Korean ancestry speak credible Korean.

Wow. Didn't know that.

Yeah, I have no real complaints about the way they cast--they're casting for their specific audiences, so I'm not going to get worked up over it. It makes sense.

So just imagine the English speaking Koreans are all from Manchester.

Haha!

I know that my Taiwanese-American friend couldn't watch Firefly for YEARS because she said that they mangled the Chinese so badly on that show. Then again, in that case the entire cast admitted to failing terribly at the language. (Maybe they should have cast a few Chinese-American actors...)

I can so easily, easily believe that.

Maybe they should have cast a few Chinese-American actors...)

SERIOUSLY. SERIOUSLY.

I'm fond of the show but it WAS SO FULL OF FAIL when it came to race/language/culture/etc.

I don't have an American example, but I do have a British one XD. In the very first episode of Skins, there is a character who's supposed to be Polish. Surprisingly, her Polish accent when she speaks English is BRILLIANT. But there is a moment when she says a sentence in some language that I think is supposed to be Polish, but in fact it's not. I have NO idea what language it is. I don't think it's an actual language.

If I come across sth funny in American tv, I'll make sure to let you know ;). But I doubt it will happen, Polish people tend to NOT appear in any tv shows ;).

Oh, I tend to avoid listening to Paul Wesley speaking Polish, because what he does with the language is painful.

That is so strange! I remember that character!

I'll make sure to let you know ;).

Thanks! I'm interested!

I would think the only time American culture would portray Polish characters is in WWII-type things. Unfortunately.

because what he does with the language is painful.

Oh, yeah, he's got Polish ancestry, doesn't he? I forgot that.

I've listened to this girl on Skins a few times, but I couldn't understand a word. I just assumed it was supposed to be Polish, because her accent sounded like Russian (which, totally wrong - Polish and Russian are very close, but NOT in pronunciation).

There was a Polish character in "Under the Toscan Sun". I can't tell how he's doing since I haven't seen the movie, but I assume he's great, since the actor actually is Polish. Also, Tom Hanks' character in "Terminal" might be Polish (he comes from a fictional country, but the name of this country, Cracovia, is the name of one of the major Polish cities in Latin). "The Pianist" is set in Poland, so, since almost all of the characters are Polish, they don't bother with accent ;). The funny thing is that Adrien Brody mispronounces his character's name :D. Not that I blame him, "Władysław Szpilman" must sound like hell for an English-speaking person.

Huh, now you made me curious. I need to look for more movies!

Yep, Wesley's last name is actually Wasilewski, and his grandparents still live in Poland :). From what I've heard, he can communicate in Polish, but has very heavy American accent. Which is why I can't listen to him - I code American accent in Polish as terribly pretentious, and I know it's not Paul's fault that he sounds like that, but it's still unpleasent to hear.

I can't, off the top of my head, think of a single instance of a credible Scandinavian accent on US TV (except in the cases where they actually hired a native speaker), let alone a successful case of someone actually speaking the language(s). They usually either go with a deliberately bad German accent, complete with lots of "ja" (because "yes" is always the last word you learn when you learn a foreign language), or they just do the Swedish Chef accent. Then again, 3 times out of 4 their entire character is only about being blonde, blue-eyed, and called either Sven or Inga. (Unless they get Sweden mixed up with Switzerland and do a slightly different deliberately bad German accent and call him Klaus.)

ETA: OK, the guy playing a Swedish exchange student in "Inca Mummy Girl" isn't awful.

German is a bit of a mixed bag. Most German accents or actual spoken German you hear on US TV are atrocious, but occasionally you get someone who actually speaks it or at least makes an effort to get it right. Sarah Chalke, for instance, really is fluent in German (with an American accent). So there was one episode of Scrubs where they had a German patient, and Chalke (playing a bilingual American character) spoke the language far better than the character (played by an American actor, obviously) who was supposed to be German...

Edited 2012-03-05 07:22 (UTC)

Speaking of Buffy - how about flashback Anya and Olaf? Do they even speak any existing language? ;)

Funny you should ask. :) (Short answer - their lines are written in vaguely correct Swedish, but their pronounciation... hoooooooo boy.)

Oh, man, I speak an incredibly tiny amount of German (used to speak it on an intermediate level, but I haven't used it in years, so, alas, I have lost my ability, though I hope to spend some time learning it again at some point), but I can generally spot when someone's doing an okay job of it. But I remember in the X-Files episode "Triangle" when they have the guy who played the Cigarette Man trying to speak German AND IT WAS SO PAINFUL TO ME. So horribly, horribly painful. I can only imagine what a native speaker would make of that.

or they just do the Swedish Chef accent. Then again, 3 times out of 4 their entire character is only about being blonde, blue-eyed, and called either Sven or Inga. (Unless they get Sweden mixed up with Switzerland and do a slightly different deliberately bad German accent and call him Klaus.)

Yes, I unfortunately know exactly what you're talking about. *sigh*

Have you seen the Hollywood version of Girl with a Dragon Tattoo? Everyone speaks in these weird cod-Germanicised accents rather than Swedish, with the exception of Daniel Craig who doesn't bother and one bit part character actress who sounds *exactly* like my Granny (so probably west Swedish - she was born in Uddevalle in 1910).

This last actress pronounces the surname Vangen the way I think it should be said, but sadly about 75% of the way through a film about the Vangen family...

I've avoided that movie partly because I'm sure I'd spend the whole movie laughing my ass off at the silly accents. Seriously, what the hell was Fincher thinking? That sort of stuff was a joke decades ago. It's like 'Allo 'Allo The Movie.

It's hilarious. From that POV, anyway. My (English, but Swedish-speaking) cousin saw it in Stockholm and I think nearly ruptured something in reaction.

The rare instances where there's supposed to be a Finnish character in American movie, it's usually done by having the actor do a generic Swedish accent, because no-one knows what a Finnish accent sounds like :D I don't think I've ever heard a Finnish accent in American media that was actually supposed to be Finnish (because on the other hand, Finnish actors tend to also often play Swedish/German/Russian/etc. characters).

I imagine it could easier for us to find a halfway decent actor who can speak a language if we really want to.

Yeah, it is interesting that Hollywood doesn't make the effort, considering the large pool of immigrant actors they have to choose from. Like, for example, a Finnish director just made a movie about two Finnish men who fall in love with an American woman, and cast Emilie de Ravin to play the lead because people would have mocked the film if he'd tried cast a Finnish actor for the role (the actor pool in Finland in so small that there is no such thing as an unknown Finnish actor).

Then again, I think about 90% of American characters on TV right now are played by Australian or British actors, so maybe Hollywood execs just want to make sure American actors get at least some roles... ;)

it's usually done by having the actor do a generic Swedish accent, because no-one knows what a Finnish accent sounds like

Yeah, I think a lot of Americans think of Scandanavia as like one country. Just like they lump together all of Eastern Europe.

because on the other hand, Finnish actors tend to also often play Swedish/German/Russian/etc. characters

Interesting.

Yeah, it is interesting that Hollywood doesn't make the effort, considering the large pool of immigrant actors they have to choose from

Yes, this exactly.

Then again, I think about 90% of American characters on TV right now are played by Australian or British actors, so maybe Hollywood execs just want to make sure American actors get at least some roles... ;)

Haha!

Just like they lump together all of Eastern Europe.

Well, to be fair, Russian, Belorussian and Ukrainian are so similar that I can't tell them apart. On top of that, many people in Belarus just use Russian in their everyday life. Polish, Czech and Slovak also are very close (ok, those I CAN tell apart, but I think a Russian person could have a problem here). So I'm guessing that native speakers of East Slavic languages would all have very similar accents in English. I can't remember ever hearing Czech or Slovak people speaking English, but I'm guessing that they also make similar mistakes ;). Anyway, I do hear the difference between East Slavic and West Slavic speakers, and there are also non-Slavic languages in Eastern Europe, so you are right, treating the entire region as one could definitely result in hilarity ;).

Like, for example, a Finnish director just made a movie about two Finnish men who fall in love with an American woman, and cast Emilie de Ravin to play the lead because people would have mocked the film if he'd tried cast a Finnish actor for the role (the actor pool in Finland in so small that there is no such thing as an unknown Finnish actor).

Hee! I'm guessing Emilie De Ravin tried to go for a more flat American accent instead of her natural Australian one? To be honest, I think her accent's pretty noticeable even when she's trying to cover it up. Though there's some actors who do an amazing job.

She's an Australian too? I didn't know that :)

(and clearly neither have many other people, people every article I've seen of the movie has called her "American actress")

Are there any USAmerican actors left in Hollywood?

I think it is so hard to get the accents correct, and it does not always add much to a show or movie, even if it is done well. In the UK, actors seem to use a generic 'American' accent, as if there are no regional variations. With American actors, it generally seems like they can do a butchered version of Cockney, or 'posh', a la Gwyneth Paltrow. Rene Z did a great job in 'Bridget Jones' but I would love to see a foreigner doing a British regional accent, like Mancunian or Liverpudlian, if they can do it. Not that a lot of British actors can do those well!

To me, Hugh Laurie on House sounds really convincing, but I don't know if Americans would agree. I do remember the first time I read that James Marsters was not English, I didn't believe it, as, hands down, his is the best English accent on tv. (Well, I would say that, as 'Spike can do no wrong' is the mantra by which I live!)

I actually think I prefer it when actors speak in their normal voices, if they can't do the accent well. It's easier to suspend disbelief that way. If a group of 'French' people are speaking English to each other in a movie, as if they are speaking French like all those b & w WW2 movies, where the Nazis all spoke English!, it is somehow more convincing if they don't speak it with a French accent. Or at least I stop thinking about the fact that they're not speaking in the correct language. The fake accents make it more jarring.

I remember someone saying that Kevin Costner's Robin Hood was dumb because he kept his US accent. I loved that movie, but, if he had tried to do a Dick Van Dyke, it would have been terrible! So, unless you can be convincing, don't do it!

the UK, actors seem to use a generic 'American' accent, as if there are no regional variations. With American actors, it generally seems like they can do a butchered version of Cockney, or 'posh'

Yup, I would agree with that.

but I would love to see a foreigner doing a British regional accent, like Mancunian or Liverpudlian, if they can do it.

I bet they'd fail pretty bad! Most American actors can't do a decent southern accent; I can't imagine what they'd do with a regional British one!

Did you think Marsters' accent was better than Alexis Denisof's? I've heard good things about his.

I actually think I prefer it when actors speak in their normal voices, if they can't do the accent well. It's easier to suspend disbelief that way.

I generally agree with this.

To me, Hugh Laurie on House sounds really convincing, but I don't know if Americans would agree.

Yep, Hugh Laurie is excellent. Every time I hear him speak with his normal accent, I have this brief WTF moment where I have to remind myself that he's actually British. :)

In general, UK/Aussie actors seem to be a lot better at doing American accents than the other way around. Probably because they need to be able to do it in order to work in Hollywood? You rarely see American actors playing non-American roles in foreign TV/films. Whenever they're doing a foreign accent, it's usually a Hollywood production that's set somewhere else.

I would love to see a foreigner doing a British regional accent, like Mancunian or Liverpudlian, if they can do it.

I don't know if it's just me, or is it a general tendency, but American English is much easier to learn than British English, let alone regional British accents XD. I tried to do Welsh accent at some point, but I gave up and just came back to practising American. It's a struggle to even understand some British accents ;).

But then, American might be easier simply because most of the shows/movies I watch are American.

Random interjection:

FWIW, one of my professor who's an expert in Chaucer once said that the Middle English accent more closely resembles American than it does modern British.

So all the movies that have Robin Hood with a more modern Brit accent might be accurate to modern British, but are wildly incorrect historically speaking.

So it's not only accents by region that get lost, but by time.

There are hardly ever any Dutch-speaking characters in American movies or tv. I do remember one or two people (I think on Hustle once?) who were British but supposedly were fluent in Dutch. Needless to say, they were not.

I also remember there was an episode of Dalziel and Pascoe (British murder mystery cop show thingy) set in The Netherlands, where the local characters kept talking accented English even when they were among themselves. Idk, that cracked me up at the time. ;)

Yeah, I don't know of very many Dutch-speaking characters in American productions, either.

where the local characters kept talking accented English even when they were among themselves. Idk, that cracked me up at the time. ;)

YES. This cracks me up, too.

Characters speaking Hindi/Urdu on US television do a decent job, generally because there are enough native speakers to fill the roles.

OTOH, US shows tend to mangle Arabic script.

Photoshop and its ilk tend to strip out conjugation if you simply Copy+Paste Arabic text into them. So even if the graphic designers got a nice friendly native speaker to email them authentic arabic text, by the time they process the words they end up with gibberish.

Characters speaking Hindi/Urdu on US television do a decent job, generally because there are enough native speakers to fill the roles.

Well, that's encouraging!

Photoshop and its ilk tend to strip out conjugation if you simply Copy+Paste Arabic text into them. So even if the graphic designers got a nice friendly native speaker to email them authentic arabic text, by the time they process the words they end up with gibberish

Fascinating. Now that you say that, I can totally imagine that often being the case.

I've heard that Pam from True Blood speaking Swedish(?) is pretty bad, but I obviously don't have an informed opinion on the subject.

I don't watch True Blood, but judging from this clip, it's very obvious which actors actually speak Swedish and which simply read it out phonetically. But it's still a lot better than most other attempts I've heard.

But then, Pam isn't actually Swedish, is she? I always assumed that she just learned the language to communicate with Eric when they don't want other people to understand.

I'm not sure where she's supposed to be from, TBH. So yes, I suppose she could just be that bad at it.

If Pam is the woman at the end, then she doesn't really sound like someone speaking Swedish with an American accent, though obviously that's hard to say in general - her pronounciation is in the ballpark, but the rhythm is off; like someone reading words she's been taught how to pronounce but doesn't actually understand. But still, far better than Anya and Olaf, for instance.

This is making me laugh a little, only because I feel like I read/heard somewhere (a commentary?) that Anya and Olaf's voices were supposed to be dubbed for the Swedish parts, but then the actors sounded so "good" that they decided to skip the dubbing.

Yeah, I would know myself either.

Well, if it helps any - my friend Marcela from NYC once said (giggling like mad) that my English sounds exactly like when they make fun of Germans on USamerican TV... ;-)

Ha!

You're the one we got that from!

I'm famous. *g*

(Below i recc'd a Russian movie to go with your Russian lit class!)

I have another one:

This thread reminds me of the amazing lengths Russian (well, Soviet...) movies go to when it comes to language. I've seen dozens of movies with characters from Germany/Sweden/UK/... and these characters speak flawlessly. Because the actors are native speakers.

Even when depicting their great enemy, Nazi Germany, there are dozens of actors from Germany who play the, well, Germans. (And this is a very weird experience, since i watch these movies with English subtitles - my Russian is just too bad - and suddenly i understand the spoken text like whoah! Even the small, insignificant stuff like two soon-to-be-shot German sentries at a bridge/warehouse/etc having a talk about a cigarette, or their latest meal actually speak flawless German.)

While i'm at it - Film rec.:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049783/

(Available on youtube, i think)

Nothing to do with accents, just - as i was told by a Russian friend - a great movie to understand the Russian soul. :-)

"Much can be said about the range of emotions found in today's movies. They've certainly become better at promoting a cool atmosphere, adrenaline rushes, making plots that are cleverly built up to a climax, and fitting in as many square centimetres of skin as possible into the film. Some emotions are, however, totally, and I mean totally, disregarded. Intense melancholy, an intense sense of longing and sensations of intense pity for the characters are now nowhere to be found. This movie has all of that in spades, making it radically different from today's European and American movies. It is more "theatrical" than today's more "realistic" films, but for God's sake, don't let that put you off. An incessantly beautiful soundtrack sweeps through the entire film, and the pictures are stunningly beautiful, though in a Russian way that can simply be labelled "different". This film was an eye-opener to the fact that I've seen so many movies that ultimately have left me nearly indifferent to the fate of the characters, and to some loose theory that melancholy and pity are closely related. Everyone should hunt this movie down. The ending will haunt you forever. Anything you watch afterwards will seem like ridiculous attempts to give you cheap thrills."

(Rec from IMDB)

Wow! Good for the Russians! Hollywood should be ashamed of itself--so much money, and we can't be bothered to do the same.

THAT MOVIE SOUNDS AMAZING. I hadn't ever heard of it before, so thank you so much for suggesting it. I will have to check it out.

I wince 99% of the times someone is trying to do a "latin" american accent in a USA movie/show. An American trying to talk Spanish is most of the time awful. Specially because it's obvious they do not do even a little of research, seems that every "latin" american is either Mexican or grew up in Miami, you know? And they limit the fake accent to that. America is more rich than that. Of course, USA people can't always know this and it's not their obligation either (and noone can know all of this, unless you're a native or do serious research) but a Mexican accent is very different from an Argentinan accent. In general, to keep it somewhat close to reality, there's like three groups of accents in America, people from the caribean talk a certain way, north South American another and South South America another.

I'm from South South America, I don't sound even close to let's say Cuban, not a little bit. Actually, sometimes it could be a problem to understand them (I have cuban friends) and I'm sure they have a problem understanding me too.

I think for the native, hearing a "foreing" talking their language would most of the time sound funny, or plain wrong. I bet Spanish speakers sound funny too talking in English for you guys -hence the comedic portrayal of us in some shows.

I think it would be nice if when impersonating other cultures one takes the time to research.

Unfortunately, I can't remember what the movie in which I came across this situation was, but it had vampires in it. There was a flashback narration to a gloomy Romania from back in time, with apparently local folk... except they were all speaking Polish. Which, theoretically slash miraculously, could have happened. Still.

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this is proof of how american i am that i never considered this until i started watching foreign TV

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