lirazel | gross

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gross

So as much as I would like fandom to have a better standing in society's eyes, I'd rather us kee being ignored forever if it means we can avoid articles like a this. Ugh. That just makes me feel uncomfortable. What is the point of this article? Why does it need to exist? It doesn't provide any real insight into the world of fanfic or why people write fanfic or how we feel about it. It pretty much only exists so that people outside of our community can wrinkle their noses and think about how weird we are.

Plus, I'm like 99% sure that the writer of that article didn't contact the writers of the fics to ask if they could quote them. Which of course they don't legally have to do, but it would be POLITE, okay? Nobody wants to find out their fic has been quoted on NBC's website. Gross.

Ugh.

Stop looking so happy, Andrew-in-my-icon. This is making me uncomfortable.

[eta: I feel like this is also a good time to point out that I stumbled across the article via

fanthropology, which is simultaneously awesome and HORRIFYING. It start out as a sort of meta community about fandom, but now it's mostly just a linkspam of media references to fanfiction. There are a few surprisingly positive discussions about the fanfiction community in the larger culture, but most of them will just make you SO ANGRY.]

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I'm only skimming that article and I already am torn between disgust and wanting to throw things.

You know who else gets the fanfic treatment surprisingly often? Mr. Facebook himself, Mark Zuckerberg.

Oh, how ODD.

The strange little corner of the Internet known as "fanfic"

Fuck you very much.

And then of all things, he cites a fanfiction discussing privacy. Who is this idiot and can we shun him publicly in some fashion? I'm so skeeved out.

And like youthful users on Facebook, many of these authors may cringe with embarrassment if they read back on their contributions in a few years. But isn't that what's great about the web: it enshrines our awkward stages for all eternity!

I'd like to find his embarrassing stages and post them on NBC's front page. Where is Anonymous. We have a job for you.

ETA: I'm tempted to leave a comment about he's a moron on the site, pointing out the problems with this article.

Would that be a bad thing to do? I'm a little impulsive right now.

Edited 2012-02-05 16:42 (UTC)

I personally love how he entirely fails to understand the difference between Mark Zuckerberg the person and Mark Zuckerberg THE CHARACTER IN AN INSANELY POPULAR MOVIE THAT IS BASICALLY JUST RPF FIC ANYWAY.

I'd like to find his embarrassing stages and post them on NBC's front page.

Oh, that would be AWESOME.

I would personally love you forever (even more than I already do) if you did indeed post such a comment. I think it could only be a good thing.

I personally love how he entirely fails to understand the difference between Mark Zuckerberg the person and Mark Zuckerberg THE CHARACTER IN AN INSANELY POPULAR MOVIE THAT IS BASICALLY JUST RPF FIC ANYWAY.

EXACTLY!!!! Sooooo... it's totally cool and awesome when Aaron Sorkin writes a story about real people, only loosely based on fact, but when ~people on the internet~ do it, it's totally fucking weird?

Well, one's getting paid and the other isn't. DUH.

RIGHT I FORGOT. Because people should NEVER DO ANYTHING unless they're getting paid.

What's that, you say? "Hobbies"? I don't know what that is.

Yes, but the filmed RPF fic was written by important people. Important rich people. With penises.

You really can't even start to have a conversation about society's attitudes towards fanfiction without getting into feminist theory, can you?

PRETTY MUCH. Because the attitudes are always based in either "eww, girls are infecting this text with their feelings!" or "eww, girls are possibly getting SEXUAL PLEASURE from writing these stories! Gross."

Whaaat.

It's impossible to have looked up all those fics and NOT seen a single disclaimer that the fandom is all about Jesse!Mark and Andrew!Eduardo. He probably just chose TSN fandom and added the Zuckerberg pics for gasp!shock! value. Yeahhh...'twas basically written so outside people could point and laugh at fandom.

often wrestle with secret inner conflicts that are nowhere hinted at in the original material
*gasp* How HORRIBLE we all are to probe the depths of a fictional character! Don'tcha know that you can only do that in textbooks and on a blackboard?

(Also, now I'm imagining a Twipire Eduardo eating baby deer. Vegetarianism? Cannibalism? Both?!)

He probably just chose TSN fandom and added the Zuckerberg pics for gasp!shock! value. Yeahhh...'twas basically written so outside people could point and laugh at fandom.

EXACTLY.

How HORRIBLE we all are to probe the depths of a fictional character! Don'tcha know that you can only do that in textbooks and on a blackboard?

I love you so hard.

(Also, now I'm imagining a Twipire Eduardo eating baby deer. Vegetarianism? Cannibalism? Both?!)

DON'T THE FISH EAT THE OTHER FISH? THE MARLINS AND THE TROUT?

Why do people have to be so awful? It's Superbowl Sunday. Right now millions of people are painting their faces and wearing jerseys despite the fact that most of them have zero athletic talent so they can get emotionally invested in grown men throwing around a football...and we're the weirdos? Ugh, people are the worst sometimes. And that guy is a total tool.

YES YES YES YES YES. You are so right it's ridiculous.

Normally I'd just feel sorry for a grown-ass adult who still feels the need to go "lol, look at the geeks!" but seriously, this is what it takes to get published and paid? Sad, sad state of affairs.

Seriously though. Seriously.

I couldn't help myself. I risked showing everyone my real name (stupid facebook login) and commented. Twice.

Comment # 1:
"This article completely misses the point. Mark Zuckerberg fanfiction isn't about Mark Zuckerberg the man. It's about Mark Zuckerberg the character from The Social Network, and deals with his relationships with other characters from the film. I don't see any real point to this article other than to mock a particular niche of the fanfic community, and I doubt the author asked if s/he could link to the original fanfictions mentioned. Some fanfic writers are seasoned authors with published original fiction as well as their fanfic. They're not just pimple-faced kids writing in their parents' basement. And it is natural for any author to cringe at their previous, early wrings, as I'm sure Mr. Dashevsky would do were we to see what he was writing in high school."

Comment # 2:
"A much better description of the world of fanfiction Lev Grossman's "The Boy Who Lived Forever" from the July 7, 2011 issue of Time Magazine. That article respected the community and set out to understand it, not make fun of it, as Mr.. Dashevsky did."

I guess the author can now contact me if he wants to discuss what I disliked about his article.

YOU ARE MY HERO. ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

BLESS YOU.

Well, seeing as Damon totally writes Scarlett/Rhett fic ALL THE TIME, he would have to, wouldn't he?

You know that Damon relates to Scarlett a ridiculous amount. I mean, sure she has some Katherine characteristics - destroying relationships to get ahead, being the ultimate survivor. But then she's left alone! And DETERMINED TO WIN RHETT BACK. And WHY DIDN'T ASHLEY JUST TELL HER THAT HE WASN'T INTERESTED INSTEAD OF STRINGING HER ALONG FOR YEARS, HUH?!! (My dad and I are like ...ASHLEY YOU SUCK when we watch the movie. He's well-written and well-played though.) And Damon has some of the Katherine characteristics too, what with hurting people one cares about (Scarlett's sisters, Damon's bro, etc.).

There is so much fix-it fic. And he probably bitches about historical accuracy. (This is hilarious to me, considering TVD's stance on the subject.) Or completely ignores it for the sake of art IT'S ABOUT THE FEELINGS PEOPLE (this one actually seems more likely to me).

Edited 2012-02-06 20:02 (UTC)

HAHAHA I LOVE YOU. Yes! To all of this!

I am mad right now. I HATE how people usually portray fandom, and while I can usually still enjoy it if someone brings it up in a show I like, I hate the stereotypes. Which is why I'm one of the few people who actually LIKES Love and Monsters (minus the last 10 or 15 minutes when it starts to go downhill) because it's a very gentle and loving look at fandom.

This case makes me even MORE mad because we're not writing about the real guy, we're writing about the movie guy. There's a difference.

Absolutely agreed.

Jesus Christ. What is wrong with people? It's fine to have an opinion and it's fine to express that opinion, but that tool wasn't doing that! He was making broad generalizations about people who write/fanfic based on his own discomfort. And what purpose could he have possibly been trying to serve, other than providing readers with an opportunity to poke fun at the "geeks?"

And did he somehow miss that most of the fic in that category is based on TSN? Which is actually a movie, even if it's about real people (but no one finds that odd. Nope. RPF by Aaron Sorkin doesn't count). And then he's acting like it's even weirder to write about the actors. I guess he doesn't realize that fanfic can literally be written for anything.

And don't get me started on how he quoted people's fic. Just because you're condescendingly amused, and the material is on the Internet, and the author is known by a pen name, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have to at least tell them before you put their work in an article on a news site. Especially since there's a pretty good statistical chance that at least one of the quoted authors is a minor.

Also:
"If his company's historic IPO filing and Google+'s meteoric rise are foremost on the mind of Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg, a close third is surely the inexplicably expansive collection of online fan fiction in which he is a featured character subject to all manner of bizarre scenarios and nonsensical predicaments." Oh really? Because I am almost certain that it is not.

"The strange little corner of the Internet known as 'fanfic'" Strange? Really? We're strange? Have you ever actually BEEN on the Internet?

"Like so many other works that live at the axis of teen and geek culture, last year's dorm-to-domination saga The Social Network..." dorm-to-donimation film that was nominated for all sorts of awards is geek culture, but every sports movie ever is just "normal" culture? Okay then.

"The borrowed characters in fanfic often wrestle with secret inner conflicts that are nowhere hinted at in the original material, in the process revealing far more about the authors than was probably intended." ... Like what? That we're creative and like to tell stories?

"We imagine that someone working at Facebook reads DVICE who could pass it along right to the top. And who knows, you might be asked to be the official bard of FB! But of course, you would just turn it down, because like a true fanfic writer, you're just doing it for the love." FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU AND YOUR CONDESCENDING BULLSHIT. Fic writers get original stuff published. It happens. And even if they never write anything original and only write fic because they love it, where do you get off acting like someones hobby is wrong? No one gets paid for their hobbies!

Okay. Rant over.

It's fine to have an opinion and it's fine to express that opinion, but that tool wasn't doing that! He was making broad generalizations about people who write/fanfic based on his own discomfort. And what purpose could he have possibly been trying to serve, other than providing readers with an opportunity to poke fun at the "geeks?"

I think that's the thing that bothers me most about it all--is that there is NO REASON FOR THIS ARTICLE TO EXIST except to mock other people.

Which is actually a movie, even if it's about real people (but no one finds that odd. Nope. RPF by Aaron Sorkin doesn't count).

EXACTLY. UGH!

And don't get me started on how he quoted people's fic. Just because you're condescendingly amused, and the material is on the Internet, and the author is known by a pen name, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have to at least tell them before you put their work in an article on a news site. Especially since there's a pretty good statistical chance that at least one of the quoted authors is a minor.

YES YES YES.

Oh really? Because I am almost certain that it is not.

No kidding.

Strange? Really? We're strange? Have you ever actually BEEN on the Internet?

WOOOOOOOOOOORD.

FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU AND YOUR CONDESCENDING BULLSHIT. Fic writers get original stuff published. It happens. And even if they never write anything original and only write fic because they love it, where do you get off acting like someones hobby is wrong? No one gets paid for their hobbies!

Amen.

"I think that's the thing that bothers me most about it all--is that there is NO REASON FOR THIS ARTICLE TO EXIST except to mock other people." Absolutely none. It's not news. It's not an editorial. It's BULLYING. Did he think no fanfic authors would see what he wrote? Does he somehow think we won't be offended? Hurt even? Can you imagine being one of the authors he calls out by name stumbling across it? They're real people, even if they aren't using their real names, and reading that would cause a reaction. And that reaction could be amusement or anger, but it could also be hurt or embarrassment or shame. And that is NOT OKAY. bullying "the other," bullying ANYONE, is never, ever okay.

Unfortunately this doesn't surprise me at all. I have plenty of very geeky guy friends who paint tiny figurines of imaginary armies, pretend to be gnome wizards every other week, and argue passionately about comic book characters--oh, but fanfic? That's just sad.

(Personally I think it's rooted in sexism. If guys do it, it's all in good fun/literary/just doing what comes naturally. If "fangirls" do it, it's gross and weird and just girls over-thinking things.)

Anyway, if our own nerdy communities have to create a hierarchy of what's acceptable geekiness, then I certainly can't expect better from an outsider looking in. :|

Still, that article was crap.

Oh, I totally, totally agree with you about the sexism stuff. Absolutely. Compare "masculine" sports culture versus "feminine" creative works fandom and the way that society at large reacts to them.

Anyway, if our own nerdy communities have to create a hierarchy of what's acceptable geekiness, then I certainly can't expect better from an outsider looking in. :|

Well-said. Very well-said.

Unfortunately, I think fanfic is something that people outside the community will never really understand. Fannish behavior is definitely universal–people obsess over sports and name-brand purses and collectible figurines and all kinds of dumb things. As a kid, I went to this thing called BreyerFest, which is more or less a convention of (mostly) grown adults who are really, really obsessed with plastic model horses and re-sculpt them and make them teeny, tiny little saddles and all kinds of stuff. I mean, I'm sure they get mocked, too, but it was actually a pretty big event that brought people from around the country/equestrian celebrities, weird fake horse shows be damned.

But I think fanfic communities get some extra mockery because 1)Writing without profit seems like a waste of time–fanfiction isn't a material thing (even the Breyer thing allowed people to charge hundreds-thousands for models/model tack, etc. Fanfiction doesn't (and shouldn't) have monetary value, at least not until copyrights expire) 2) What other people have said about it being a predominately feminine sphere of geek culture 3)It being a facet of geek culture in the first place 4)It's weird! There's kink and RPF and stuff, and even seasoned fanfic writers can encounter certain things that weird them out at first (I was pretty bothered by RPF when I first encountered it. Now, I don't care so long as the people featured are celebrities) 5)It's more or less anonymous–you talk about it with you fellow ffic writers, not your work buddies.

So, basically, it's easy pickings for people who want to go, "Ewww, vampire tentacle slash baby!fic; I don't get it." And I'm not sure what it would take to get more acceptance in mainstream culture. Some positive representations probably wouldn't hurt. :)

Writing without profit seems like a waste of time

Which is so silly, since we don't think the same thing about playing music without profit or making art without profit or playing sports without profit.

What other people have said about it being a predominately feminine sphere of geek culture

So much sexism involved in this whole thing.

So, basically, it's easy pickings for people who want to go, "Ewww, vampire tentacle slash baby!fic; I don't get it." And I'm not sure what it would take to get more acceptance in mainstream culture. Some positive representations probably wouldn't hurt. :)

Yeah, you're right--I think it'll be a very, very long time before it's thought of as even a neutral thing, much less a positive one.

Which is so silly, since we don't think the same thing about playing music without profit or making art without profit or playing sports without profit.
Of course it's silly! But I think we're also fighting the fact that many people don't understand writing "just for fun." Playing ball with your buddies is fun. Writing is what your teachers make you do in grade school.

I would have to think about this some more/do actual research, but I'm guessing the "no money" thing might actually contribute to the way fanfiction is viewed, and even toward the sexism to which it's treated? You know, fanfiction writers will never "buy" themselves legitimacy, like other segments of the geek market. We might have money to throw around, but it's impossible to throw it around in support of fanfiction. We lack clout, so to speak.

(Of course, y'know, it would be completely wrong to take money from copyrighted characters, and I love fanfiction as free dialogue among fans, so I am absolutely not saying that writing only counts/is worthwhile if you're paid).

And I think it might relate to how women's creative endeavors have been treated as illegitimate, historically speaking? You know, a woman make the family dinner, and it might be *awesome,* but it's her sons that go out and become famous chefs and get paid and earn legitimacy? I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this. Sorry. But I feel like there might be a link somewhere. *g*

Yeah, you're right--I think it'll be a very, very long time before it's thought of as even a neutral thing
Which is really an unfortunate, especially since we're living in an era of constant re-boots, published Jane Austen continuations, etc.

I agree so much about the confusion regarding writing for fun. I've had to explain the concept of enjoying writing to so many people, it's not even funny. And this isn't even going into the concept of fanfic. Just writing in general. My response is usually something along the lines "of course writing can be fun for some people! Where do you think all the books/movies/shows you like are coming from? Someone who loves to write made them up and wrote them down!"

But I think we're also fighting the fact that many people don't understand writing "just for fun." Playing ball with your buddies is fun. Writing is what your teachers make you do in grade school

True. That way of thinking is just so foreign to me that I forget how foreign my way of thinking could be to other people.

You know, fanfiction writers will never "buy" themselves legitimacy, like other segments of the geek market. We might have money to throw around, but it's impossible to throw it around in support of fanfiction. We lack clout, so to speak

This is a fantastic point, and one I hadn't really considered. Comic book geeks are vindicated when comic book movies make billions, those who are really into technology are the ones who are in demand in the job market, etc. You're very right.

And I think it might relate to how women's creative endeavors have been treated as illegitimate, historically speaking? You know, a woman make the family dinner, and it might be *awesome,* but it's her sons that go out and become famous chefs and get paid and earn legitimacy? I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this.

Again, I think you're absolutely right.

Writing without profit seems like a waste of time

I dunno, I feel like this should be changing, now that blogs are so popular? I mean, sure, there's a difference between writing fiction and writing about... whatever you blog about (although LJ is a pretty obvious example where the line is blurry), but it's still writing for fun. But the moment you introduce fiction into the equation, it becomes weird that you don't want to get paid? I do not get it.

I dunno, I feel like this should be changing, now that blogs are so popular?
I don't think people actually make that connection? I mean, bloggers are all writing with the hope that they'll get 3 billion page views a day, get a book deal and appear on The Daily Show, right? Sure, some fanfiction authors get discovered and signed on with publishers, but bloggers are still producing original content.

And I think you're right–there is some kind of perceptual distinction between writing about fashion or food or parenting and writing fiction using characters you don't own (maybe because blogging doesn't necessarily intersect with the already-maligned geek culture?). I wonder if people who post original erotica or adventure stories or whatever online get treated with the same kind of disdain? My guess is that people still don't get it, but it's not considered **as bad**. But I'm not really sure.

Dude! I spent years collecting Breyer horses - they are still all in my dad's basement - and I dreamed of going to Breyerfest, but it was way away from where I lived, so I never did.

I mean, you also make good points 1-5, but mostly I was excited about the model horses. (That hobby, incidentally, is where I learned 98% of what I know about genetics.)

OMG! Breyer buddies!

I was actually never a huge collector, but I have a couple that are decently valuable. And I went to Breyerfest twice, I think? It was a fun time for the horse-crazy kid, but, yeah, Lexington, KY is not close to anything but other parts of KY. :D

I'm doing the opposite of what jerk face did, and letting you know that I'm linking this post on my journal. :)

Thank you for your considerateness!

...wow, he could at least make it clear that TSN fic is referring to the characters in the movie, which are (loosely) based on real people. So we are not picturing Mark Zuckerberg, we are picturing Jessie Eisenberg playing Mark Zuckerberg (and Andrew Garfield as Eduardo Saverin and Timberlake instead of the real Sean Parker, etc.). There is something interesting to say about ficcers incorporating elements from the actual people's lives that aren't mentioned in the movies, but this article isn't it. (The names of siblings, Farmville, etc.) ...I still haven't actually seen the movie, despite it sitting on my laptop. But people link me to fic, so.

I mean. I'm sure there probably is fanfic about THE ACTUAL MARK ZUCKERBERG that predates TSN or ignores it. There's RPF about politicians. But there's more about the actors, so. This whole thing is weird.

Yup. Missing points right and left, wasn't he?

There is something interesting to say about ficcers incorporating elements from the actual people's lives that aren't mentioned in the movies, but this article isn't it.

Yeah, that could be an actually interesting article with a point and stuff.

YARGH! I saw this earlier because tsn fans on my Twitter feed were talking about deleting all their stuff. Which makes me so angry (at the "journalist") and sad (for the fans). TSN FANDOM FOREVER!!!!!

That upsets me so, but who can blame them? How awful would it be to see your stuff quoted in an "article" like this?

... Is it weird that I can't even take that article seriously? It's like someone trying to assert a position of superiority while having no idea what the fuck they are talking about. Idiot.

Not weird at all. In fact, I might have expected such a reaction from you. :D

Wow. I read one sentence involving the words "scary" and "world," was thoroughly disgusted and hit the back button fast. Fuck that, man. They just don't get it.

Yours was a wise move.

I think that posting fanfic about actual people crosses into libel territory because someone reading it might take it as fact instead of fiction. Silly, I know, but people are not always logical. :-P However, since this is about characters based on RL people in a movie (i.e., a work of fiction), then I see no harm.

...Actually, now that I think about it, tabloids make up stories about actual people all the time. And they even make money off it! So, fanfic can't be as bad as that.

Personally, I don't give a flying Wallenda what people think about me or my hobbies. I don't write fic, but I've read enough to fill the Library of Congress. :-P I've never understood people's obsessions with sports. To me, getting emotionally invested in a game being played by other people makes the kind of sense that is not. Yet, as was evident today with the Super Bowl, millions of people do it all the time. It's not for me. Now, give me a well-written, plotty, Spuffirific fic, and I'm all in. :-)

think that posting fanfic about actual people crosses into libel territory because someone reading it might take it as fact instead of fiction.

You have to prove intent to disparage in a libel suit, though, so I don't think that would be an easy case to make.

Yeah, everyone's hobbies are weird when you think about it. People should keep that in mind.

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gross

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This got sort of long. Apparently I have feelings on the topic

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Re: This got sort of long. Apparently I have feelings on the topic

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being polite

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