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S8--now with thinky thoughts!
I have actual thinky thoughts on the whole S8 thing! More than just ranting and raving! They aren’t very well informed thoughts, true, but aren’t y’all proud of me anyways? These aren’t S8 bashing-thoughts, though. I have people on my flist (*coughemmiecough*) who are big fans of S8 and who regularly feel attacked about them. So feel free to express your thoughts that they’re ridiculous, but no real bashing, and no being ugly to people who disagree with you, okay?
In the immortal words of my mama, who always shouted them after me every single time I left the house: be sweet!
And I’m kind of hesitant to talk about this, because all my information is second hand, and I feel like people will be annoyed with me for talking about something I’m not terribly informed about. So I guess here’s a warning: if you’re one of those people who will indeed be annoyed with me because I’m talking about something I have no first-hand knowledge of, don’t waste your time reading this. Okay? Okay!
But first, some thoughts on my thoughts on the comics!
Here's the thing: I'm not reading the comics. I never read the comics. I've discussed this with![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
angearia a thousand times before, but the whole medium doesn't do much for me. For me, fiction is mostly about motive. In a novel, a short story, even a poem, the motive is there: on the page. I can submerse myself in someone else's thought processes, bury myself in their brain space, and that is supremely satisfying to me. On the other hand, in film and television, I have actors communicating to me, and when they're good at what they do, I can figure out what their motives are by the looks on their faces, their inflection, etc. I can get into their brains. And I love that.
With comics, I have neither way in. And so it takes something really special to overcome my antipathy towards the medium (like, Watchmen or Sandman or something) and engage myself in the story. (Sometime, I'm going to write a big long rambling post on why I love novels and--in general, with a few very vivid exceptions--dislike short stories.snickfic has heard it already, but hey! I like to ramble!). S8...isn't enough. I guess maybe it should be. I'm so incredibly invested in the character of Buffy Summers. I love Dawn. I'd really like to see more of Faith as she comes into her own. One would think that I'd be all about this whole "new season" thing.
But I'm not. About 2/3 of this has to do with my dislike of comics as a medium. The remainder has to do with the fact that A) Buffy therein doesn't sound like my Buffy (I understand that a lot of people can totally reconcile the whole bank robber thing. I appreciate that--good for them! I, however, can't), and B) I'm not convinced that it will all come together in the end. It's an unpopular opinion, I know, but I've never thought that Joss can do wrong. He can--big, massive-fail kind of wrong. Of course, he can also do big, massive-win kind of right, which is mostly what Buffy is, and which is why I still consider myself a fan.
But...Battlestar Galactica. I don't regret for a moment watching that show. But I am frustrated by the conclusion (I’ll say no more for the sake of a few people I know are still catching up *winkwink*). Mostly on a character-level, it worked for me, but on a plot-and-theme level? It didn’t. And it was a big letdown. And then there’s LOST, which I quit watching a few episodes into S3. I had watched it absolutely compulsively from the first episode till then, but it got to the point where it felt more like a labor to watch than an enjoyment. However, everyone’s told me that it got good again. But I still haven’t caught up, because I don’t know that I trust that it will have a satisfying ending. So I’m going to wait until it finishes airing, and then talk to people whose opinions I trust, and then see if it’s worth my time. There’s far, far too much great TV for me to be watching to waste my time on something that will end up being ultimately disappointing.
And that’s what I intend to do with S8, too. Ifangearia and everyone else on my flist who’s still reading it thinks it ends well and everything comes together, then, yes, I might just check it out. I don’t begrudge anyone else’s enjoyment of them (in fact, I think it’s kind of sad how attacked and badgered the fans of S8 feel around here. *pets Emmie*), and I’m thrilled that they like them! I hope they continue to! No S8 bashing here! But for now, I just don’t care about them.
Except that I do care. As I’ve been poking around reading other people’s thoughts here in our little corner of Buffy fandom, someone (I think it might have beenquinara? Maybe?) summed up my thoughts completely: I don’t care about the comics. Except that I do. I don’t care about the comics themselves, but I still care (profoundly) about the characters they’re telling a story about. So when things are plugging along, neutral or positive or even mildly negative, I’m fine and I read angearia’s thoughts and move on with my life. But when they become really, really negative? Well, that’s a different story.
Which leads me to this latest reveal.
I actually think this is perfectly in character for Angel as a character. The very thoughtfulstormwreath pretty much sums up why here in a most excellent post. I (generally) love S5 of Angel and I lovelovelove “Not Fade Away,” even though I think both the season and the finale were, in fact, not at all about heroism but about how supremely, supremely messed up Angel’s sense of morality is—and how he dragged the people around him down with him. I don’t precisely like Angel, except when he’s interacting with Spike, Darla (I don’t care what you say, she’s his true love!), or Connor (or Cordy, before they completely ruined her personality starting in S3 of AtS. But that’s another story). I get frustrated beyond belief that he always think he knows best—hubris, much? But I do find him a generally interesting character, even if I’ll never be overly invested in him because he stirs no passionate feelings in me. So the idea of him going to the Twilight place? Is fine with me. It sounds interesting. If done well (which, I admit, I don’t have a ton of faith in)—and by well, I mean fully embracing how awful his decision is, and really exploring the fact that the ends don’t justify the means—I think it could be excellent.
But there are two things that give me pause.
The first is this: I don’t know that Joss will actually be willing to go there. The fan backlash will be too extreme. I think the only reason they got away with AtS S5 at all is because people actually think he did the right thing, and they view NFA as heroic. Which it isn’t. It’s awful. Just like Twilight’s actions. And if it’s actually presented as awful, I feel like Angel’s fans will not be happy (and I can’t blame them).
The second is this: Spike. Oh, yes. If it doesn’t come back to Buffy for me, it comes back to Spike. I identify with him to an unhealthy degree (again, one day I’m going to post a big rambling overshare about why I identify with him so deeply), and I’m totally invested in his journey. And, asgabrielleabelle says in the GREATEST POST EVER, Spike is either completely unimportant to S8 or is going to be incredibly vital, so much so that his presence will be a BIG DEAL.
I’m not a fan of either option. I’m not a fan of him not mattering because even if I didn’t believe that Buffy loved him very much in S7 (which I do. I do I do I do!), I don’t believe there’s any denying that he was important to her. One of the major figures in her life. I can’t believe she wouldn’t care whether he was alive or not or that she wouldn’t at least think about him (in some way other than as a sexual fantasy) once in a while. But I prefer this one to the other option.
Because the other option is that he will be majorly important. And, y’all, there’s no way that he’ll come in as a good guy. If he shows up, he’s going to be on Twilight’s side. The fact is, there’s no way Joss is ever going to settle the Buffy/Angel versus Buffy/Spike thing. It isn’t going to happen. It would piss off one side or the other too much. So I don’t believe for a second that he’ll bring Spike in and have him be a good guy while Angel’s being evil. Because that would infuriate the Angel fans. But if he brought him in as a bad guy? Well, then I would be infuriated.
Also, as someone pointed out, whenever Angel pops up in Buffy’s thought’s he’s always accompanied by Spike (sometimes really, really accompanied by him, if you catch my meaning). And Spike’s been right there with Angel since he popped out of that amulet.
And, y’all, I will care if Spike is as evil as Twilight. I will care. Because Spike’s story—his stumble towards redemption, with all its twists and turns, and his continued efforts to stay on the straight-and-narrow--matters to me. The comics aren’t part of my canon. But still. I’ll be kind of crushed if all that he’s worked so hard to attain is crushed or dismissed in S8. Yeah, it’ll hurt.
Now, there’s a possibility that Joss will pull something so complex, so masterful that all of my objections will becoming moot and ALL WILL BE REVEALED. Wouldn’t that be absolutely kick-ass? But I don’t think that’ll happen. Because the fact is, that while Joss is simply amazing at characterization (mostly) and at big emotional moments and subverting tropes and writing fantastic dialogue, he sucks at plotting. Almost as much as he does at world-building. And I just don’t think he’ll pull this off.
But I really hope I’m wrong! I hope the final installments of the comics are brilliantbrilliantbrilliant and that everyone loves them so much that I’m convinced to read them and that I love them so much and they make me happy and inspire me to write all kinds of fic and that they earn a place on my (newly-organized!) bookshelves.
But…I’m kinda skeptical.
But I suppose we’ll see!
In the immortal words of my mama, who always shouted them after me every single time I left the house: be sweet!
And I’m kind of hesitant to talk about this, because all my information is second hand, and I feel like people will be annoyed with me for talking about something I’m not terribly informed about. So I guess here’s a warning: if you’re one of those people who will indeed be annoyed with me because I’m talking about something I have no first-hand knowledge of, don’t waste your time reading this. Okay? Okay!
But first, some thoughts on my thoughts on the comics!
Here's the thing: I'm not reading the comics. I never read the comics. I've discussed this with
angearia a thousand times before, but the whole medium doesn't do much for me. For me, fiction is mostly about motive. In a novel, a short story, even a poem, the motive is there: on the page. I can submerse myself in someone else's thought processes, bury myself in their brain space, and that is supremely satisfying to me. On the other hand, in film and television, I have actors communicating to me, and when they're good at what they do, I can figure out what their motives are by the looks on their faces, their inflection, etc. I can get into their brains. And I love that.With comics, I have neither way in. And so it takes something really special to overcome my antipathy towards the medium (like, Watchmen or Sandman or something) and engage myself in the story. (Sometime, I'm going to write a big long rambling post on why I love novels and--in general, with a few very vivid exceptions--dislike short stories.
snickfic has heard it already, but hey! I like to ramble!). S8...isn't enough. I guess maybe it should be. I'm so incredibly invested in the character of Buffy Summers. I love Dawn. I'd really like to see more of Faith as she comes into her own. One would think that I'd be all about this whole "new season" thing.But I'm not. About 2/3 of this has to do with my dislike of comics as a medium. The remainder has to do with the fact that A) Buffy therein doesn't sound like my Buffy (I understand that a lot of people can totally reconcile the whole bank robber thing. I appreciate that--good for them! I, however, can't), and B) I'm not convinced that it will all come together in the end. It's an unpopular opinion, I know, but I've never thought that Joss can do wrong. He can--big, massive-fail kind of wrong. Of course, he can also do big, massive-win kind of right, which is mostly what Buffy is, and which is why I still consider myself a fan.
But...Battlestar Galactica. I don't regret for a moment watching that show. But I am frustrated by the conclusion (I’ll say no more for the sake of a few people I know are still catching up *winkwink*). Mostly on a character-level, it worked for me, but on a plot-and-theme level? It didn’t. And it was a big letdown. And then there’s LOST, which I quit watching a few episodes into S3. I had watched it absolutely compulsively from the first episode till then, but it got to the point where it felt more like a labor to watch than an enjoyment. However, everyone’s told me that it got good again. But I still haven’t caught up, because I don’t know that I trust that it will have a satisfying ending. So I’m going to wait until it finishes airing, and then talk to people whose opinions I trust, and then see if it’s worth my time. There’s far, far too much great TV for me to be watching to waste my time on something that will end up being ultimately disappointing.
And that’s what I intend to do with S8, too. If
angearia and everyone else on my flist who’s still reading it thinks it ends well and everything comes together, then, yes, I might just check it out. I don’t begrudge anyone else’s enjoyment of them (in fact, I think it’s kind of sad how attacked and badgered the fans of S8 feel around here. *pets Emmie*), and I’m thrilled that they like them! I hope they continue to! No S8 bashing here! But for now, I just don’t care about them.Except that I do care. As I’ve been poking around reading other people’s thoughts here in our little corner of Buffy fandom, someone (I think it might have been
quinara? Maybe?) summed up my thoughts completely: I don’t care about the comics. Except that I do. I don’t care about the comics themselves, but I still care (profoundly) about the characters they’re telling a story about. So when things are plugging along, neutral or positive or even mildly negative, I’m fine and I read angearia’s thoughts and move on with my life. But when they become really, really negative? Well, that’s a different story.Which leads me to this latest reveal.
I actually think this is perfectly in character for Angel as a character. The very thoughtful
stormwreath pretty much sums up why here in a most excellent post. I (generally) love S5 of Angel and I lovelovelove “Not Fade Away,” even though I think both the season and the finale were, in fact, not at all about heroism but about how supremely, supremely messed up Angel’s sense of morality is—and how he dragged the people around him down with him. I don’t precisely like Angel, except when he’s interacting with Spike, Darla (I don’t care what you say, she’s his true love!), or Connor (or Cordy, before they completely ruined her personality starting in S3 of AtS. But that’s another story). I get frustrated beyond belief that he always think he knows best—hubris, much? But I do find him a generally interesting character, even if I’ll never be overly invested in him because he stirs no passionate feelings in me. So the idea of him going to the Twilight place? Is fine with me. It sounds interesting. If done well (which, I admit, I don’t have a ton of faith in)—and by well, I mean fully embracing how awful his decision is, and really exploring the fact that the ends don’t justify the means—I think it could be excellent.But there are two things that give me pause.
The first is this: I don’t know that Joss will actually be willing to go there. The fan backlash will be too extreme. I think the only reason they got away with AtS S5 at all is because people actually think he did the right thing, and they view NFA as heroic. Which it isn’t. It’s awful. Just like Twilight’s actions. And if it’s actually presented as awful, I feel like Angel’s fans will not be happy (and I can’t blame them).
The second is this: Spike. Oh, yes. If it doesn’t come back to Buffy for me, it comes back to Spike. I identify with him to an unhealthy degree (again, one day I’m going to post a big rambling overshare about why I identify with him so deeply), and I’m totally invested in his journey. And, as
gabrielleabelle says in the GREATEST POST EVER, Spike is either completely unimportant to S8 or is going to be incredibly vital, so much so that his presence will be a BIG DEAL.I’m not a fan of either option. I’m not a fan of him not mattering because even if I didn’t believe that Buffy loved him very much in S7 (which I do. I do I do I do!), I don’t believe there’s any denying that he was important to her. One of the major figures in her life. I can’t believe she wouldn’t care whether he was alive or not or that she wouldn’t at least think about him (in some way other than as a sexual fantasy) once in a while. But I prefer this one to the other option.
Because the other option is that he will be majorly important. And, y’all, there’s no way that he’ll come in as a good guy. If he shows up, he’s going to be on Twilight’s side. The fact is, there’s no way Joss is ever going to settle the Buffy/Angel versus Buffy/Spike thing. It isn’t going to happen. It would piss off one side or the other too much. So I don’t believe for a second that he’ll bring Spike in and have him be a good guy while Angel’s being evil. Because that would infuriate the Angel fans. But if he brought him in as a bad guy? Well, then I would be infuriated.
Also, as someone pointed out, whenever Angel pops up in Buffy’s thought’s he’s always accompanied by Spike (sometimes really, really accompanied by him, if you catch my meaning). And Spike’s been right there with Angel since he popped out of that amulet.
And, y’all, I will care if Spike is as evil as Twilight. I will care. Because Spike’s story—his stumble towards redemption, with all its twists and turns, and his continued efforts to stay on the straight-and-narrow--matters to me. The comics aren’t part of my canon. But still. I’ll be kind of crushed if all that he’s worked so hard to attain is crushed or dismissed in S8. Yeah, it’ll hurt.
Now, there’s a possibility that Joss will pull something so complex, so masterful that all of my objections will becoming moot and ALL WILL BE REVEALED. Wouldn’t that be absolutely kick-ass? But I don’t think that’ll happen. Because the fact is, that while Joss is simply amazing at characterization (mostly) and at big emotional moments and subverting tropes and writing fantastic dialogue, he sucks at plotting. Almost as much as he does at world-building. And I just don’t think he’ll pull this off.
But I really hope I’m wrong! I hope the final installments of the comics are brilliantbrilliantbrilliant and that everyone loves them so much that I’m convinced to read them and that I love them so much and they make me happy and inspire me to write all kinds of fic and that they earn a place on my (newly-organized!) bookshelves.
But…I’m kinda skeptical.
But I suppose we’ll see!