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a mess of a post about love triangles (this is not even meta. it is rambling)
Warning: this post is a mess. Just…a mess. Proceed with caution.
There’s spoilers here on things that have already aired, but everything’s labeled with its fandom, so just skip over anything you haven’t seen all of yet.
So a couple of days ago when that “ask me a fandom-y question!” meme was going around, I ended up asking![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
ever_neutral what her top five this-should-just-end-in-a-threesome fandom situations were (because: duh) and the answers were awesome and it got me to thinking about love triangles.
Because mostly I find them annoying. Mostly I think they’re there to Create! Drama! and there’s no real question of who’s going to end up with whom (I mean, seriously, did anyone in the world actually think that Bella was going to choose Jacob over Edward? I mean really? Ship that all you want, but I don't think the most naive person alive would think there was a chance Bella would choose Jacob) and it’s just this sort of lazy device to Keep the Starcrossed Lovers apart. I start to yawn.
But! Occasionally it’s done Actually Well! My basic philosophy on stories in general is that Almost Anything can be awesome if it’s Done Well (there are a few things I have no interest in even if they’re done well, but that list is veeeery short). And that occasionally does apply even to the dread Love Triangles (or Squares).
Of course the key to them being good is that they have to actually come from the characters and not from the demands of the plot (I guess this is a theme with me lately). Now there are some that fall into that category, where everyone’s acting in character, but I am still annoyed by the triangle because I don’t care about 1/3 of said triangle. If I have no investment in that character, I find it hard to invest in their role in the triangle. So. Mostly my favorites are ones where A) everyone is acting in character and B) I love (or at least like) everyone.
First off, some Love Triangles (or other shapes) that Work for Me:
1. Mawang. Kang Oh Soo -Seo Hae In-Oh Seung Ha. New obsession. I cannot reiterate enough how perfectly constructed this love triangle is. And mostly that’s because the sides are equal. Kang Oh Soo to Seo Hae In to Oh Seung Ha and back again: all of them are perfect. True, the relationship between the boys is…so many degrees and levels of complicated that it makes Spike and Angel’s relationship look like a walk in the park, but it’s still powerful and real and makes sense. And it’s one of the few times when I believe that the girl actually does have profound feelings for both of the boys. And their lives are just so tangled up in each other that when you strip everything away they’re defining each other in all the ways that matter. They’ve chosen each other, sometimes in real strange and unexpected and even ugly ways, but those ways always arise out of who they are as people and the choices they make. This is one of the times where I just want them to run away and live in a house on the beach together and work through their issues and be perfect all three of them together. I spent the whole time seriously torn between which boy Hae In should pick and that NEVER happens. I’m usually yelling at the screen because the answer is so obvious. But not this time. I love everyone in this morally complicated bar, basically.
2. Vampire Diaries. Stefan-Elena-Damon-(Katherine). No, really! It’s not that I ship everything going on here, because I don’t, really, but I think this is one of those cases where things make sense for the characters and that the way it unfolds makes for good television. Now, the way that fandom treats this as a typical OH WHO’S SHE GOING TO CHOOSE LET’S HAVE A SHIPPER WAR kind of thing is stupid. But the actual text…makes so much sense. It really does. I totally understand why both of the boys are so into Elena (and some of those reasons are healthy ones and some of them are so very not) and I get why Elena chooses Stefan but why Damon is such a big part of her (he is SO her Spuffy-esque dark place, I cannot even). Someone on tumblr (probably ruthseriouslydothis, but I could be wrong) points out that the reason they’re so perfect is that Stefan’s always going to choose Damon, Damon’s always going to choose Elena, and Elena’s always going to choose Stefan (it’s slightly more complicated than that, but it’s a good way of boiling it down) so they’re like this perfect little equilateral triangle of messed-up-ness. And the thing is, the show makes it really clear that Elena isn’t going to choose Damon (it really does), so there isn’t this perpetual (mostly boring) question hanging in the air. When it comes to what matters, she’s going to choose Stefan, but she’s also going to sit in the shadows with Damon when Stefan can’t be there. AND THOSE BOYS WHO KEEP SAVING EACH OTHER AND HATING EACH OTHER FOR THE SAVING. Oh, man. And then toss Katherine in here, and how Damon loved her too much and Stefan didn’t love her enough and she loved both of them (WHATEVER IT’S CANON, BITCHES), and I just love what a tangled mess these ridiculous people are.
3. Skins. Tony-Michelle-Sid. Not in the first series. I don’t have any interest in Sid’s unrequited love or whatever. I love you Sid, baby, but get over it. BUT THE SECOND SERIES. When Michelle and Sid can’t handle what’s happened to Tony and they sort of stumble into each other and it’s not about like romantic love or whatever, but it is about Tony and how neither one of them can reach him anymore and how much they hate themselves for that and how much they resent that they still feel the obligation to be there for him. And it’s also about their friendship, because they do love each other as friends so very much and they’ve reached the point where they can see each other pretty clearly except that they also always see Tony when they look at each other and come on let’s be honest: at least 90% of their little affair is about Tony and how they can’t have him and how they see each other as the embodiment of him. And the other 10% is about the comfort of friendship. And so obviously that falls apart once Tony starts to take control of his life again. And he just loves them both so much (Tony and Sid’s friendship is honestly one of my favorites ever, I can’t even) but he’s so bad at actually showing love because of this façade he’s created for himself (he has Created Tony Stonem so perfect in series 1, and then the accident and it all crumbles, and then series 2 is about him building Tony Stonem again but it’s different this time). And probably they all need some time apart from each other so they can figure out who they are (especially Sid and Michelle apart from Tony) but also I just see them drawing each other back in always.
4. Not a love triangle in canon, but: Harry Potter. Harry-Ron-Hermione. Because come on. The Trio together always is the only thing that makes sense. (Though I do love JKR for not going the obvious route with the love triangle in-text). These three do not work for me if they’re presented as a typical love triangle with the boys sparring for the affection of the girl (though if someone wrote ‘Harry and Hermione fight over who gets Ron’ fic, I would probably be all over that for the lulz). But if they decided to be together as a threesome: YES.
5. Buffyverse. Angel-Buffy-Spike. BUT ONLY SOMETIMES. I mostly hate the way people write this love triangle. Like, really hate it. The show manages to skirt it pretty well (except for “End of Days” which is STUPID and a few times in AtS S5) because there’s not a lot of overlap between the Angel-Buffy, Spike-Buffy, Angel-Spike romances chronology-wise. But so many people present this so wrong in fic. This is not a couple of teenage boys who are competing for the pretty girl (though the occasional twelve-year-old pettiness is EXCELLENT). But most people use this triangle in fic to create some sort of drama—like, because of who’s writing it, we know that Buffy will end up either with Angel or with Spike going in, but the writer wants to create some DRAMA and so they throw the other one in there to compete! And…yeah, sometimes that can be in character, but I still get bored with it? I’m so much more interested in these three seeing that they’re all a part of each other so let’s work this thing out. There is centuries of history here and all kinds of deaths and resurrections and lots of blood and horrible things but also lots of moments of peace and love very very hard-won. Like, embrace the complications. I think it would be hella complicated if they did decide to see this thing through, and it would probably only ever happen if most of the people Buffy cares about are out of her life (whether because of death or something else) because she still cares too much about what other people think, but I can see scenarios in which they would work through this. And probably there would be lots of fights and some serious brooding from Angel and such. But it could work, even if it was so, so messy. (Only if Cordy’s still dead, though. If Cordy’s alive it’s Angel and Cordy all the way, okay?) And just in general I am tickled to death that canonically each one of them has been with both of the others. EVERYONE’S SLEPT WITH EVERYONE ELSE. IN CANON. [Also, I would probably pay someone to write me fic wherein Buffy and Angel fight over Spike. Because it’s ALWAYS Angel and Spike fighting over Buffy and in a few rare cases Buffy and Spike fighting over Angel, but I would like to see Spike fought over dammit!]
A few that don’t (or wouldn't) work for me in canon but that could be EXCELLENT in fandom:
1. Downton Abbey. Mary-Matthew-Lavinia. Always in mourning over my girl Lavinia. Always. I mostly hate this in-canon because no one really believed for a second that Fellowes wouldn’t have Mary and Matthew be endgame, and he’s such a lazy writer that he even kills of Lavinia to make it happen EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN’T HAVE TO. He wrote the out himself. He had Lavinia be aware enough of what’s going on around her that she sees that Matthew really wants to be with Mary and she steps aside. YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO KILL HER, YOU RIDICULOUS FOOL. Ugh. I hate the canon stuff so bad. But they would be perfect in fanon.
2. Leverage. Hardison-Parker-Eliot. I’ve liked this on occasion in fic, but I’m a total and complete Parker/Hardison fangirl so I have no interest in this happening in canon (not that it ever would).
A few that don’t work for me at all but are probably well-constructed:
1. The Hour. Hector-Bel-Freddie. I get why people OT3 them. I really get it. But while I got to the point where I like Hector okay as a person, I am mostly like GO BACK TO YOUR WIFE, HECTOR (adultery = number one squick ever). Marnie is awesome. Bel/Freddie forever. And by forever, I mean forever being in that complicated place where they’re clearly more to each other than friends but aren’t actually together and sometimes really hate each other and sometimes really are bffs and sometimes Freddie quotes e.e. cummings poetry to Bel and journalistic shenanigans ensue. That’s how I like them.
2. BSG. Sam-Kara-Lee-Dee. What is this? I mean, it totally makes sense for each one of the characters. I respect that. I think it’s a very well-done mess, for the most part. But I don’t care about Kara and Lee, so I can’t flail over this. I’ll leave that to other people.
3. Friday Night Lights. Jason-Lyla-Tim. It’s so Arthurian! I do like that! But I don’t know. I don’t invest in this love triangle. I just don’t care for the most part, especially about Jason and Lyla. Mostly I’m just here for the Jason and Tim bff relationship. That said, all of their behaviors make so much sense with who they are as people. I can appreciate it even if I don’t enjoy it.
Some that Do Not Work for Me:
1. Doctor Who. Rory-Amy-Eleven and Rose-Nine/Ten-Mickey. The former is just an attempt at creating DRAMA for its own sake (and making Rory a much less interesting character in the process) and dragging it out too far and the latter just makes me sad for Mickey who doesn’t deserve to get strung along or whatever. Thankfully they eventually dropped the whole Rory-Amy-Eleven thing and everything was better. And then Mickey got to marry Martha (I will not say: upgrade! here because I don’t dislike Rose. But I love Martha so much that to me it does feel like an upgrade).
2. Veronica Mars. Duncan-Veronica-Logan. UGH DUNCAN YOU ARE SO BORING. I think this role was miscast. Probably someone else could have at least made him interesting. But as it stands I never care about Duncan except when it comes to his baby. I’ll be over here shipping Veronica and Logan, thanks very much.
3. LOST. Jack-Kate-Sawyer. Okay, so I only watched the first two seasons of this show. But this BUGGED me. The show was clearly setting up Jack/Kate as endgame, but I don’t care a thing about Jack and his manpain, so I only shipped Kate/Sawyer but not like hardcore or anything because the whole triangle just bugged me. Ugh. Did not want.
4. Gossip Girl. Nate-Blair-Chuck. NATE WAS SO BORING. I know that since I quit watching this show (the end of S2), everyone has jumped ship to Blair/Dan, which from what I’ve seen on tumblr, I support! But back in the day it was all about Blair and Chuck, and Nate was just harshing my squee.
5. Every other kdrama I’ve seen. Go away, Yul! Go away, Chae Rin! ESPECIALLY GO AWAY PRESIDENT BYUN.
So now you should tell me about which love triangles work for you and which you hate and why. We should talk about this.
There’s spoilers here on things that have already aired, but everything’s labeled with its fandom, so just skip over anything you haven’t seen all of yet.
So a couple of days ago when that “ask me a fandom-y question!” meme was going around, I ended up asking
ever_neutral what her top five this-should-just-end-in-a-threesome fandom situations were (because: duh) and the answers were awesome and it got me to thinking about love triangles.Because mostly I find them annoying. Mostly I think they’re there to Create! Drama! and there’s no real question of who’s going to end up with whom (I mean, seriously, did anyone in the world actually think that Bella was going to choose Jacob over Edward? I mean really? Ship that all you want, but I don't think the most naive person alive would think there was a chance Bella would choose Jacob) and it’s just this sort of lazy device to Keep the Starcrossed Lovers apart. I start to yawn.
But! Occasionally it’s done Actually Well! My basic philosophy on stories in general is that Almost Anything can be awesome if it’s Done Well (there are a few things I have no interest in even if they’re done well, but that list is veeeery short). And that occasionally does apply even to the dread Love Triangles (or Squares).
Of course the key to them being good is that they have to actually come from the characters and not from the demands of the plot (I guess this is a theme with me lately). Now there are some that fall into that category, where everyone’s acting in character, but I am still annoyed by the triangle because I don’t care about 1/3 of said triangle. If I have no investment in that character, I find it hard to invest in their role in the triangle. So. Mostly my favorites are ones where A) everyone is acting in character and B) I love (or at least like) everyone.
First off, some Love Triangles (or other shapes) that Work for Me:
1. Mawang. Kang Oh Soo -Seo Hae In-Oh Seung Ha. New obsession. I cannot reiterate enough how perfectly constructed this love triangle is. And mostly that’s because the sides are equal. Kang Oh Soo to Seo Hae In to Oh Seung Ha and back again: all of them are perfect. True, the relationship between the boys is…so many degrees and levels of complicated that it makes Spike and Angel’s relationship look like a walk in the park, but it’s still powerful and real and makes sense. And it’s one of the few times when I believe that the girl actually does have profound feelings for both of the boys. And their lives are just so tangled up in each other that when you strip everything away they’re defining each other in all the ways that matter. They’ve chosen each other, sometimes in real strange and unexpected and even ugly ways, but those ways always arise out of who they are as people and the choices they make. This is one of the times where I just want them to run away and live in a house on the beach together and work through their issues and be perfect all three of them together. I spent the whole time seriously torn between which boy Hae In should pick and that NEVER happens. I’m usually yelling at the screen because the answer is so obvious. But not this time. I love everyone in this morally complicated bar, basically.
2. Vampire Diaries. Stefan-Elena-Damon-(Katherine). No, really! It’s not that I ship everything going on here, because I don’t, really, but I think this is one of those cases where things make sense for the characters and that the way it unfolds makes for good television. Now, the way that fandom treats this as a typical OH WHO’S SHE GOING TO CHOOSE LET’S HAVE A SHIPPER WAR kind of thing is stupid. But the actual text…makes so much sense. It really does. I totally understand why both of the boys are so into Elena (and some of those reasons are healthy ones and some of them are so very not) and I get why Elena chooses Stefan but why Damon is such a big part of her (he is SO her Spuffy-esque dark place, I cannot even). Someone on tumblr (probably ruthseriouslydothis, but I could be wrong) points out that the reason they’re so perfect is that Stefan’s always going to choose Damon, Damon’s always going to choose Elena, and Elena’s always going to choose Stefan (it’s slightly more complicated than that, but it’s a good way of boiling it down) so they’re like this perfect little equilateral triangle of messed-up-ness. And the thing is, the show makes it really clear that Elena isn’t going to choose Damon (it really does), so there isn’t this perpetual (mostly boring) question hanging in the air. When it comes to what matters, she’s going to choose Stefan, but she’s also going to sit in the shadows with Damon when Stefan can’t be there. AND THOSE BOYS WHO KEEP SAVING EACH OTHER AND HATING EACH OTHER FOR THE SAVING. Oh, man. And then toss Katherine in here, and how Damon loved her too much and Stefan didn’t love her enough and she loved both of them (WHATEVER IT’S CANON, BITCHES), and I just love what a tangled mess these ridiculous people are.
3. Skins. Tony-Michelle-Sid. Not in the first series. I don’t have any interest in Sid’s unrequited love or whatever. I love you Sid, baby, but get over it. BUT THE SECOND SERIES. When Michelle and Sid can’t handle what’s happened to Tony and they sort of stumble into each other and it’s not about like romantic love or whatever, but it is about Tony and how neither one of them can reach him anymore and how much they hate themselves for that and how much they resent that they still feel the obligation to be there for him. And it’s also about their friendship, because they do love each other as friends so very much and they’ve reached the point where they can see each other pretty clearly except that they also always see Tony when they look at each other and come on let’s be honest: at least 90% of their little affair is about Tony and how they can’t have him and how they see each other as the embodiment of him. And the other 10% is about the comfort of friendship. And so obviously that falls apart once Tony starts to take control of his life again. And he just loves them both so much (Tony and Sid’s friendship is honestly one of my favorites ever, I can’t even) but he’s so bad at actually showing love because of this façade he’s created for himself (he has Created Tony Stonem so perfect in series 1, and then the accident and it all crumbles, and then series 2 is about him building Tony Stonem again but it’s different this time). And probably they all need some time apart from each other so they can figure out who they are (especially Sid and Michelle apart from Tony) but also I just see them drawing each other back in always.
4. Not a love triangle in canon, but: Harry Potter. Harry-Ron-Hermione. Because come on. The Trio together always is the only thing that makes sense. (Though I do love JKR for not going the obvious route with the love triangle in-text). These three do not work for me if they’re presented as a typical love triangle with the boys sparring for the affection of the girl (though if someone wrote ‘Harry and Hermione fight over who gets Ron’ fic, I would probably be all over that for the lulz). But if they decided to be together as a threesome: YES.
5. Buffyverse. Angel-Buffy-Spike. BUT ONLY SOMETIMES. I mostly hate the way people write this love triangle. Like, really hate it. The show manages to skirt it pretty well (except for “End of Days” which is STUPID and a few times in AtS S5) because there’s not a lot of overlap between the Angel-Buffy, Spike-Buffy, Angel-Spike romances chronology-wise. But so many people present this so wrong in fic. This is not a couple of teenage boys who are competing for the pretty girl (though the occasional twelve-year-old pettiness is EXCELLENT). But most people use this triangle in fic to create some sort of drama—like, because of who’s writing it, we know that Buffy will end up either with Angel or with Spike going in, but the writer wants to create some DRAMA and so they throw the other one in there to compete! And…yeah, sometimes that can be in character, but I still get bored with it? I’m so much more interested in these three seeing that they’re all a part of each other so let’s work this thing out. There is centuries of history here and all kinds of deaths and resurrections and lots of blood and horrible things but also lots of moments of peace and love very very hard-won. Like, embrace the complications. I think it would be hella complicated if they did decide to see this thing through, and it would probably only ever happen if most of the people Buffy cares about are out of her life (whether because of death or something else) because she still cares too much about what other people think, but I can see scenarios in which they would work through this. And probably there would be lots of fights and some serious brooding from Angel and such. But it could work, even if it was so, so messy. (Only if Cordy’s still dead, though. If Cordy’s alive it’s Angel and Cordy all the way, okay?) And just in general I am tickled to death that canonically each one of them has been with both of the others. EVERYONE’S SLEPT WITH EVERYONE ELSE. IN CANON. [Also, I would probably pay someone to write me fic wherein Buffy and Angel fight over Spike. Because it’s ALWAYS Angel and Spike fighting over Buffy and in a few rare cases Buffy and Spike fighting over Angel, but I would like to see Spike fought over dammit!]
A few that don’t (or wouldn't) work for me in canon but that could be EXCELLENT in fandom:
1. Downton Abbey. Mary-Matthew-Lavinia. Always in mourning over my girl Lavinia. Always. I mostly hate this in-canon because no one really believed for a second that Fellowes wouldn’t have Mary and Matthew be endgame, and he’s such a lazy writer that he even kills of Lavinia to make it happen EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN’T HAVE TO. He wrote the out himself. He had Lavinia be aware enough of what’s going on around her that she sees that Matthew really wants to be with Mary and she steps aside. YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO KILL HER, YOU RIDICULOUS FOOL. Ugh. I hate the canon stuff so bad. But they would be perfect in fanon.
2. Leverage. Hardison-Parker-Eliot. I’ve liked this on occasion in fic, but I’m a total and complete Parker/Hardison fangirl so I have no interest in this happening in canon (not that it ever would).
A few that don’t work for me at all but are probably well-constructed:
1. The Hour. Hector-Bel-Freddie. I get why people OT3 them. I really get it. But while I got to the point where I like Hector okay as a person, I am mostly like GO BACK TO YOUR WIFE, HECTOR (adultery = number one squick ever). Marnie is awesome. Bel/Freddie forever. And by forever, I mean forever being in that complicated place where they’re clearly more to each other than friends but aren’t actually together and sometimes really hate each other and sometimes really are bffs and sometimes Freddie quotes e.e. cummings poetry to Bel and journalistic shenanigans ensue. That’s how I like them.
2. BSG. Sam-Kara-Lee-Dee. What is this? I mean, it totally makes sense for each one of the characters. I respect that. I think it’s a very well-done mess, for the most part. But I don’t care about Kara and Lee, so I can’t flail over this. I’ll leave that to other people.
3. Friday Night Lights. Jason-Lyla-Tim. It’s so Arthurian! I do like that! But I don’t know. I don’t invest in this love triangle. I just don’t care for the most part, especially about Jason and Lyla. Mostly I’m just here for the Jason and Tim bff relationship. That said, all of their behaviors make so much sense with who they are as people. I can appreciate it even if I don’t enjoy it.
Some that Do Not Work for Me:
1. Doctor Who. Rory-Amy-Eleven and Rose-Nine/Ten-Mickey. The former is just an attempt at creating DRAMA for its own sake (and making Rory a much less interesting character in the process) and dragging it out too far and the latter just makes me sad for Mickey who doesn’t deserve to get strung along or whatever. Thankfully they eventually dropped the whole Rory-Amy-Eleven thing and everything was better. And then Mickey got to marry Martha (I will not say: upgrade! here because I don’t dislike Rose. But I love Martha so much that to me it does feel like an upgrade).
2. Veronica Mars. Duncan-Veronica-Logan. UGH DUNCAN YOU ARE SO BORING. I think this role was miscast. Probably someone else could have at least made him interesting. But as it stands I never care about Duncan except when it comes to his baby. I’ll be over here shipping Veronica and Logan, thanks very much.
3. LOST. Jack-Kate-Sawyer. Okay, so I only watched the first two seasons of this show. But this BUGGED me. The show was clearly setting up Jack/Kate as endgame, but I don’t care a thing about Jack and his manpain, so I only shipped Kate/Sawyer but not like hardcore or anything because the whole triangle just bugged me. Ugh. Did not want.
4. Gossip Girl. Nate-Blair-Chuck. NATE WAS SO BORING. I know that since I quit watching this show (the end of S2), everyone has jumped ship to Blair/Dan, which from what I’ve seen on tumblr, I support! But back in the day it was all about Blair and Chuck, and Nate was just harshing my squee.
5. Every other kdrama I’ve seen. Go away, Yul! Go away, Chae Rin! ESPECIALLY GO AWAY PRESIDENT BYUN.
So now you should tell me about which love triangles work for you and which you hate and why. We should talk about this.