lirazel | for once this is actually an important question instead of a stupid one

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not-so-stupid question for my flist

for once this is actually an important question instead of a stupid one

So as you may have figured out, my BFF is watching Buffy for the first time. (I'll fill you in on some of her reactions later--needless to say, she has excellent taste, and pretty much everything she's said to me has left me aflail.) She's about as unspoiled as it's possible to be (impressively so, actually--she didn't know about Willow coming out or Joyce dying or anything), which is something of a joy, actually.

She's speeding through Season 6 at this point, which is leaving me kind of nervous. Because I don't know whether I should warn her about "Seeing Red" or not. I'm leaning towards yes, but the question is, what should I say?

She doesn't have any personal experience that the AR scene would trigger (in which case I would absolutely tell her straight-out so that she could avoid it if need be), but that scene is plenty upsetting without it. So I'm thinking maybe I should just be vague? Say something like, "A couple of really upsetting things happen in that episode, and you should brace yourself. The most upsetting thing will be harsh, but just keep watching--the show will fix it as much as it's possible to fix something like that."

What do y'all think? What have y'all told your friends who have watched the show? Any advice at all?

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I'd mention the AR specifically- well, how easy is it to spot coming? Because I've been warned beforehand, and thus will probably be able to recognize when it's about to happen and fast forward, but if she doesn't know what it is that's going to happen, it might catch her off-guard.

See, that's the thing--I don't know. I was spoiled for it, too, so I knew it was coming and could brace myself. Knowing her, she probably won't fastforward anyway, and I really don't know at what point you can figure out what's going to happen.

Interestingly, when my roommates were first watching the show, I asked them what they thought of "Seeing Red" (I didn't have the foresight you do in warning them), they were more disturbed by Tara's death than the AR. I think at this point they were very sympathetic to spike, and none of them have any experience that would be triggering (and I don't think they were aware of what "triggering" is), so the AR was superseded by the fact that Tara dies suddenly.

Yeah. Well, my experience was reversed - my roommates were showing ME the show - but no one even thought to warn me about the AR, or commented about it afterward.

Come to think of it, no one mentioned Tara, either (but I was already spoiled for that). They did, weirdly, feel it necessary to warn me when Fred dies in AtS, so I guess they felt that was more traumatic than anything else? And yet, that's the one death I am mostly unaffected by, just because it's so deliberately manipulative.

They did, weirdly, feel it necessary to warn me when Fred dies in AtS, so I guess they felt that was more traumatic than anything else? And yet, that's the one death I am mostly unaffected by, just because it's so deliberately manipulative.

Weird indeed! Oh, that episode. Oh, that episode.

I think partly it's because my one roommate super-identified with Fred, so she was more affected by it than any other death.

Hmmm. That's interesting to me because I've always thought that SR was the most deliberately manipulative episode.

Do you mean the AR was manipulative, or Tara's death?

Fred's death, is, IMO, it's the most blatantly emotionally manipulative of all of Joss' character deaths because no one, not even Buffy, got a full episode in which to do nothing but die, and then an entire episode of nothing but Man Pain following it. It's incredibly self-indulgent - I've always felt that Joss was far more in love with Fred than I was, and AHiTW/Shells is him pulling out all the stops to make you CRY DAMMIT because it's FRED. And I resent being manipulated into mourning a character I never really liked in the first place. (And it's not even respectful of Fred's character - she is damselized, idealized, infantilized, and then fridged.)

The AR is also manipulative, but it bothers me less. Maybe because I was already sympathetic to Buffy in S6, so I didn't need to be manipulated into it? I mostly just resent that the writers, in botching things so terribly, ended up playing into all sorts of damaging stereotypes about rape.

The entire episode was manipulative, from beginning to end.

Dawn, who has been miserable most of this season, is so happy that Willow and Tara are back together that she squeals with excitement. It makes her happy; she's smiling.

That should've told me Tara was doomed. Sadly, it did not.

And how often have we seen Buffy take that exact same hit to her back, only to see her get up and kick the ass of whoever she's fighting without showing any pain afterward? Often, that's how much.

Yet, for some reason, this ONE TIME, she's "injured". I suppose I was supposed to feel sympathetic to Buffy, as you mentioned, but (after the horror of being subjected to the Godawful AR itself wore off) I wasn't. Not after having watched Buffy beat the hell out of Spike a few episodes earlier.

I mostly just resent that the writers, in botching things so terribly, ended up playing into all sorts of damaging stereotypes about rape.

THIS.

I agree with you about Fred and AHiTW/Shells. I never really warmed to her as a character.

But I loved Amy Acker as Illyria.

Haha, I pretty much assumed Tara was doomed as soon as she showed up in "Entropy." Her death is manipulative, but I guess it didn't strike me as any MORE manipulative than most Joss deaths. "Make 'em happy, then kill someone" is pretty much his standard MO. Fred's death seems to go above and beyond that, though.

Buffy being injured is silly, but it seems mostly irrelevant to me, though I'll admit that's partly based on fanwank. I know most people interpret it as Buffy had to be injured so she's unable to fight back when Spike attacks her. And maybe that's what was intended, but obviously it's not true, since she can and does fight him off when she decides to use force. IMO, she doesn't fight back at first because she doesn't want to hit him if she can help it (after their violent relationship, she's trying to be better than that) and only kicks him across the room as a last resort.

Huh. Well, Amy's not very invested in Tara, so while I'm positive she'll be shocked and sad, I think the AR is going to take precedent over that for her.

I think that in general, the AR was way bigger in fandom than it was in the audience at large. Fandom is super invested; the casual audience is much more "Cool story, bro." (Hence one of the writers commenting ruefully later, when asked what he'd learned on BtVS, that no matter what you have him do, the audience is gonna love Spike.)

Let me guess. David Fury?

No, it was DeKnight or Goddard, I think. In context it struck me as them acknowledging (too late, alas) that they couldn't force the audience to react a particular way rather than any jab at the character.

This is completely unhelpful to your question, but I'm going to share. Neither I nor my sister have triggers, but I hated the AR and didn't like the majority of S6/7. Anyway. So I got my sister watching Buffy, but she wasn't really into it. She watched it, but she didn't really care in an invested way, y'know? And we're both the sort to just quit a TV show we get bored with if it's one that we're only casually watching. She definitely started loosing interest, and I didn't want to see all of S6 again, so I chose the "good" eps of S6 to watch with her before we quit. To this day, she has no idea that the AR even happened.

Edited 2011-08-25 14:11 (UTC)

Well, it sounds like a good way to do it if you're not overly invested!

Hmm, maybe you could ask her if she has any triggers when she watches stuff? I know she's a fan of Spike, so that might be hard to watch on multiple levels.

GAH. I don't know.

I gave her a vague warning just now and asked her if she wanted more info, and she said no, she'll just brace herself for whatever it is. (She also guessed that it was rape, but I didn't confirm or deny.) I know what her triggers are, and that wouldn't be one of them, so I think she'll be okay. Well, not okay, because that episode is rough for everyone. But not horribly traumatized either.

Offer to watch it with her? I'm glad I watched it with a friend who'd seen it before and could talk about it with me, although he was actually more disturbed by the Katrina stuff in Dead Things.

This is a good thought!

Oh, "Dead Things"! SUCH a good episode but SO dark. I can understand being disturbed by that, absolutely.

That is a hard question. In the case of most of my friends to whom I introduced the show, I was watching it for the first time more-or-less with them. I knew all the major spoilers, and I'm pretty sure we had open discussions about what to expect (although, most of my friends are the type to want to know anything that might make them squeamish/uncomfortable, be it gory/scary episodes like "Hush" or deaths/traumatic events like Tara's death/the AR). When I was trying to hype the show to others, I'd try to give a candid run-down of what to expect ("Really good for the first few seasons, although there's a romantic relationship in the first half that I personally loathe, S6 sucks, but it picks up again after that") (n.b. that's not the same candid run-down I would give today).

Maybe it's just me, but if my friend didn't warn me that the end of S6 could make me uncomfortable, at the very least, I'd probably be upset with that person after being surprised by the AR. I like your "A couple of really..." idea, and I would offer to reveal the spoilers if she wants further information. However, I personally wouldn't say "the show will fix it as much..." cause, well, I think that's disingenuous. One of the most prevalent criticisms of S7 I've seen is that regardless of how you feel about Spuffy, the writers didn't address the ramifications of an attempted rape as much as they should have, and I don't think any newbie should be told that they do.

:/ You'll have to let us know how the end of the season goes. I hope your convo goes well!

("Really good for the first few seasons, although there's a romantic relationship in the first half that I personally loathe, S6 sucks, but it picks up again after that")

Soooo different than my run-down! Mine was almost opposite: S1 is cheesy and not all that great, but it's also fun, S2-4 are good even if I don't care about the main romance, but my main love is the last three seasons, and even though S6 is very, very polarizing, it's my favorite." It's always interesting how different people react to the show, isn't it? So many people will swear that the first 3 seasons are the best and it never gets good again, but I'm a fan because of the last 3.

"A couple of really..." idea, and I would offer to reveal the spoilers if she wants further information.

That's what I've just done, and she appreciated it but didn't want to hear anything else specific. I think that'll end up being the right decision for her, even if with other friends, I would flat-out tell them what happens and tell them it's okay to fast-forward.

However, I personally wouldn't say "the show will fix it as much..." cause, well, I think that's disingenuous. One of the most prevalent criticisms of S7 I've seen is that regardless of how you feel about Spuffy, the writers didn't address the ramifications of an attempted rape as much as they should have, and I don't think any newbie should be told that they do.

I made it clear that I was talking about from a Spike-perspective. He's far and away her favorite character, and she's been concerned about anything happening to him for several seasons now. And I do think that from Spike's perspective, it does fix it as much as it can be fixed. From Buffy's perspective, I still think her story was sacrified to serve Spike's, so I'm not okay with that either, and I don't think the show fixes that in a way that works for most people.

And I do think that from Spike's perspective, it does fix it as much as it can be fixed.

Yeah, that makes complete sense. For what it is, he gets a pretty good conclusion. The actual victim, not so much. :(

Soooo different than my run-down!

Hee, that's not the run-down I would give today after a year in fandom, but I know I still tend to fall in the minority of Spuffy fandom with a lot of my opinions. I definitely like the post-high school years better than the high school years, though.

Tbh I would prefer to be spoiled for the AR because, even when I was spoiled at the time, I was still NOT expecting the scene to come off as prolonged and realistic as it did. So I'd say maybe mention that something really upsetting/controversial happens in this episode with Spuffy, and then see if she wants to spoiled any more for it, or if she would rather wait to see for herself?

That's pretty much what I just did, and she didn't want any more info, but she did guess it was rape (which I didn't confirm or deny) and has braced herself. I think that was right for her. With some other people, I would just flat-out tell them what happened and let them fast-forward if they want. But I think in this specific case, she'll make it through it.

I'd certainly watch it with her and discuss it afterwards. Whether or not to tell her... hmm... does she generally get upset about events on the small screen? If not, I'm not sure I would tell her.

Gah! That's a tough one.

She doesn't really? Not in that way. She's invested, but I've never seen anything emotionally hurt her, you know? Good advice, though, you're right--it is tough.

I was unspoiled during season 6 and I ignored the warning they showed before the episode aired. I figured that nothing they'd show could be worse than Buffy beating up Spike in Dead Things. Boy, was I wrong. I had a very bad reaction to SR and it's the one episode I utterly refuse to re-watch.

I'm assuming she likes watching it unspoiled?

She does, very much. I gave her my vague warning (and told her it was real-life disturbing, not fantasy-disturbing) and she didn't really want anymore info. So I think that'll be okay.

figured that nothing they'd show could be worse than Buffy beating up Spike in Dead Things. Boy, was I wrong.

Oh, man. Yeah. It's a far sight worse.

and told her it was real-life disturbing, not fantasy-disturbing

That was a very good warning for SR, even if vague.

Yeah, I felt like that was important. Because I'm not one who gets disturbed by fantasy/sci-fi-specific kinds of scary. I watch The X-Files or whatever just fine, but as soon as there's a serial killer or a rapist or something, the very reality of the situation is what scares/disturbs me. So I thought making that distinction would help prepare her. And she guessed what it was, so I feel like she's at least prepared for it in theory.

*nods* That's my reaction to TXF as well- the ghosts and monsters don't upset me (although they do make me disinclined to walk downstairs in the dark) but ones like the Pfaster ep make me genuinely upset. It's like- I may academically believe in ghosts and the like, but I don't live in constant fear of them. A violent misogynist? That's too close to home.

You could always just point-blank ask if she wants to be warned for triggery stuff, which will probably put her on the alert that there's something to be watching out for without spoiling what it is or who it involves. But it gives her the chance to decide if she needs to know more and brace herself.

edit, I posted too slow! anyway, WISE COURSE OF ACTION.

Edited 2011-08-25 15:48 (UTC)

That's pretty much exactly what I did! Yay for mutual wisdom!

Sounds like you handled it well.

I've "shared the show" with my two best friends and my mom (more than that, but I took the time to watch every ep with those three) and with each person I gave the same speech:

This episode is really difficult to watch. If you want to know what happens I'll tell you. If not, know that we can shut it off anytime you want. And we're gonna hold hands the whole time.

They knew when I insisted on the hand-holding that it was serious. And then we held hands and they squeezed the stuffing out of me.

That sounds like the absolute best way to handle it that I've heard. Good for you. Hand-holding always helps.

You can watch this show with your mom? God I'm so jealous.

*random comment is random*

hahaha yep - Mom loves Buffy. And Angel too, but she likes Buffy better. Angel "makes her cry too much." We rewatch eps together whenever I go home for a visit.

Edited 2011-08-26 00:40 (UTC)

That's really lovely. My mom thinks vampires are stupid, thinks my love for Buffy is irrational, and won't let me introduce the show to my little brother (who's old enough for S1, if nothing else). To her credit, she tried the first three episodes a few years ago, but since then she's been completely closed-minded about it.

A few years back, I watched the show with my best friend at the time who was watching it for the first time. I was curious to see her reaction, and I didn't want to spoil anything for her, so I never told her. She had the same reaction I had to SR, she was more disturbed by the portrayal of Spike than what he actually did. I know that's probably an unpopular opinion, BUT maybe we're just tough, jaded New Yorkers? Who knows, but it didn't upset her and she was completely unspoiled.

I like your warning. I think a vague disclaimer can be your friend. I let MiAmor watch SR without a warning, and he was a basket case for days. So, so upset. He identifies with Spike in a lot of ways and he was so disappointed and depressed by the AR that I felt guilty. Thank goodness we weren't watching in real, original broadcast time, so we could power through to the slightly less bad stuff.

Gosh. I feel like such an insensitive lout, because I really don't remember being all that messed up by SR. I remember being really, really disappointed in Spike, and being terrified that the rest of the show would never be able to make it better--but I don't know.

I guess I subscribe to the laissez-faire approach to art--I just let it disturb me and take me wherever. And I pick up the pieces later.

But I'm sure a vague disclaimer was a good idea. Good call.

Yeah, what you said. I was disturbed as all hell by that bathroom scene (and I still think it was executed weirdly), but I was kind of over it by the end of the episode.

Still pissed about the treatment of Buffy, though.

Coming out of my summer-long hiatus from LJ as talking about BtVS is something that still, after all these years, is endlessly fascinating and inspiring. I think that you handled it really well with your friend because it is one episode that I have never rewatched, or, at least, not that scene. I think it is not exactly JW's finest hour, to say the least, and I just can't watch B and S acting in ways that I don't feel are true to the essence of who those two characters are.

However, I think that someone who is watching BtVS for the first time (and how I envy that person - to get to see it all as new!), can't avoid the episode all together, as it colours so much of what comes after, and provides the imputus for S's great act of self-redemption. I wish JW had found another 'reason' to send S off to get his soul back, but the S who comes back from that journey is heart-breaking, and astonishing and wonderful, and just speaks to my soul so strongly that I have to accept the plot device that led him to that, even if it sucked and was handled horribly.

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for once this is actually an important question instead of a stupid one

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