i've said it before and i'll say it again:

[lirazel]

You know what is hard?

Plot is hard.

Characters are easy and setting is super easy and big! emotional! moments! and awesome tiny details are easy, but the actual this-happens-and-then-this-happens is haaaaaaaaaaaaard. FANFICTION, YOU AND YOUR LOVELY ONE-SHOTS HAVE RUINED ME.

This...has been a post.

Comments

[mollivanders.livejournal.com]

But plot is also sooooo worth it :)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I love plot! When other people give it to me! I CANNOT DO IT MYSELF. I do not know why it is so hard for me. I hate Steve Moffat with all of my being for being so incredibly good at it.

[mollivanders.livejournal.com]

Where do you have your fic stored, by the way? Here?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hmm...let's see. I have fic written pre-lj over at my ff.net account, all my current lj fic here, and all of the stuff that I think is good over on AO3.

[madcap-shiny.livejournal.com]

AGREED.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

NO BUT SERIOUSLY: WHY IS IT SO HAAAAARD?

[madcap-shiny.livejournal.com]

I DON'T KNOW LAUREN

but really every time I have ever had a story with characters I loved and sweeping concepts I adored and Big Significant Things to say or just Cool Stuff to do, what kept me from actually writing them all? PLOTTTTTTTTTTT. >:(

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Exactly! I know who they are! I know what their emotional arcs are! I know where they live and what their favorite colors are and the world they're running around in! BUT WHAT DO I DO TO FILL ALL THE PAAAAGES?

[madcap-shiny.livejournal.com]

It is like having a ton of bricks chained to your favorite running shoes. Or. Something. HOW DO PEOPLE DO IT.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

That is is EXACTLY what it is like. Or something.

I do not know. But I want to live in their brains for a while and figure it out.

[dorians-kitten.livejournal.com]

So true. *nods* *sighs* So true.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It always makes me feel better to know that it's hard for other people, too. *wistful sigh*

[angearia.livejournal.com]

TRUFAX

I always ask myself questions. If I know the end point in the character's journey and I know the beginning, I ask myself what would this character do to get to there? Or what catalyst could I introduce to get to this point?

It's kinda like chess-meets-chemistry. You have to anticipate all these independent and dependent variables, imagining how they'll interact and combust and transform. You're enough in control that the plot doesn't run away from you, but loose enough on the reins that the characters come alive and drive the plot rather than the plot driving them.

IT'S HARD. Lol tho I haven't done much of any writing in what feels like forever. I wrote Cesare/Lucrezia flashfic. That is all.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aha! That explains! I don't know how to play chess and I'm miserable at chemistry! No wonder I suck at it!

But seriously, that's good advice. My problem comes when I have the characters and setting (I loooove setting. Love it) and little details...but I don't know what the central conflict is. Like, Buffy has vampires to kill. The Doctor and his Companions travel through time and save people. But when I can't even get that basic premise, I have such a hard time figuring out where to start. *sob*

I NEED TO CATCH UP ON THE BORGIAS. I AM LIKE THREE EPISODES BEHIND. BUT I LOVE LUCREZIA AND CESARE TOO MUCH TO DESCRIBE AND I WANT TO READ YOUR FIC.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I'm THE WORST at chess, too! I'm okay at chemistry (it's been forever so who knows now?), but honestly I don't even think that's an adequate analogy.

My favorite way of visualizing it is to think of it as horseback riding. Only it's a sport in which you first create the horse (your characters as the living animal, the setting as terrain) and then you tap your heels against the horse's flanks. Essentially, to steal River's perfect words, you "watch us run."

For me, plot comes from two places: what kind of story do I want to tell, and what would these characters naturally do (be true to the characters). My two stories that have a lot of plot started from two very basic ideas: 1) Season 8 needs Spuffy -- how do I make it Spuffy ==> TYSK; and 2) great love in fic doesn't need nc-17 to be powerful ==> chivalry + feminism ==> Fin Amour.

That question is my starting point and once I know what the story is about (what am I trying to say, what's my driving impulse), I then look to my characters to see how they'll run that race.

But when I can't even get that basic premise, I have such a hard time figuring out where to start. *sob*

I KNOW. It's so so so hard. I feel like the answer is already there, it just hasn't floated to the surface yet, but you'll find it.

AND YES CATCH UP PLEASE SO WE CAN FLAIL TOGETHER!!!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I love reading your writerly thoughts. Have I ever told you that? They make me so happy.

It's so so so hard. I feel like the answer is already there, it just hasn't floated to the surface yet, but you'll find it.


YES. YES.

I will catch up shortly! I downloaded both episodes last night!

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I'm glad! I worry about blathering on about writing. (Heh, I'm watching Sherlock rn -- note the British-y-ness of me!)

YAY THEY'RE BOTH SO GOOD

[evewithanapple.livejournal.com]

TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN. *looks woefully at 15k Big Bang assignment with no structure or story to speak of*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

This is why I have never signed up for a Big Bang. I know I would fail and then feel worse about myself. Though I find plot for fanfic sooooo much easier than original stuff even. Which is not good with the me wanting to write novels for a living. I fail at life.

I haven't seen POC yet, but can we talk about how BEAUTIFUL the people in your icon are? How can two human beings be so pretty? I want to see it just so I can ship that haaaaard.

[evewithanapple.livejournal.com]

IT'S sour_idealist'S FAULT, OKAY. I was goaded into it. And I do want yo write an epic sequel to Hanna about my bb lesbian assassins and their feelings, but feelings can't take up fifteen hundred words! What are they going to do in the meantime?

My advice: download POTC4 and just watch their scenes. There's a decent cam version floating around out there, and the movie itself isn't worth the ticket price. But these two, man. THESE TWO.

(Did you ever see Pillars of the Earth? The guy- Sam Claiflin- was in it, albeit as a minor character. It's quality. You should check it out.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Friends! Always talking us into commitments! Pfft!

but feelings can't take up fifteen hundred words! What are they going to do in the meantime?

This is exactly my issue.

Download it is, then. I only care about those two anyway. THEY ARE SO AWESOME ALREADY.

I didn't! I have it on my to-watch list, and I've meant to check it out, but I haven't yet. But a pretty boy means it moves up a spot on the list.

[evewithanapple.livejournal.com]

So many pretty boys. But really, it's mostly about the female cast being awesome and sticking together and saving the day. Also, Vincent from "Vincent and the Doctor" plays evil King Stephen.

[silverusagi]

See, I'm the exact opposite. Plot is easy, making (original) characters real is hard. Which is why I love fanfic so much. The characters are already there, they just need a new plot.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't it be nice to be good at both?

[rahirah]

It might help to break it down into:

1. What does the protagonist want?
2. What prevents the protagonist from getting what they want?
3. What must the protagonist do to get #1 in the face of #2?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

These are very good thoughts--and useful. I often find a problem in that I'm trying to write a full-length novel and yet I have perhaps 10,000 words worth of plot. So I know the Big Obstacles and where I want to take the character, but not all of the other twists and turns that make up a novel.

[rahirah]

Well, a good plot doesn't necessarily have to be complicated. Hemingway got a classic of modern literature out of "Guy wants to kill big fish. Fish objects." So did Melville, for that matter. *g*

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

When I actually thought I had the talent to be a writer, my mother would bring me home all the donated books about writing the library got (I had seven editions of The Writer's Market at one point). I have a good book on plot, written by Nan Dibble, one of my favorite fanfic writers, before she passed away. If you want me to mail it to you, pm me your address and I'll send it to you. I have to go to the UPS store anyway tomorrow, so it's not like I'm going out of my way (because, knowing you, you won't want me to go out of my way to help you!).

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

You = sweetest person on the planet

♥

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Sent it your way! Expect it Saturday or Tuesday or something, because of the long weekend. Hopefully the cell phone I had to send back to the shady ebay seller gets there in time for me to get my money back, too! See, it was important for me to go to the UPS store today, so mailing you something was no trouble at all!

[snickfic]

IS HARD.

I feel allll your pain. Yes.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I am in love with this comment. It is so you. ♥

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Preach, woman.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I can preach on this subject all the day long.

[worldwasasong.livejournal.com]

I think about this all the time! Was just pondering it today actually. Sigh. Anyone out there have any tips? Maybe there are books we could buy or something. I am so stuck and definitely feel your pain.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

If I come across any good ones, I will send recs your way. We need help, apparently.

Plot-Schmot

[sarahlovesa.livejournal.com]

I have written some non-fiction things, newspaper articles, etc. Not that hard. Have written some fictional things for myself but never posted anything. Decided to be a big brave girl and finally write that Buffy story that has been in my head and post it on ff. Wrote the first few chapters, had people actually put me on alert (Wow!). Now I am on Chapter 10 and have no clue where I am going. *hides head in shame at not having finished the story when people actually wrote nice reviews and are waiting for it*

I LOVED writing all the dialogue and trying to get the characters right. I loved all the internal monologues, and expressing feelings and showing the relationships between everyone, and having telling little details like body language and facial expressions. THAT was fun. I could write 15k of dialogue for Spike alone.

But the plot?! I have no clue how to end the story in anything other than a completely clichéd way. Why is it so hard? Is it true that there are no new ideas or plots out there?! Has everything been done before? But other people make it look so easy!! I think I have to do a James Joyce and write in some rambling stream of consciousness style where plot does not matter. But who wants to read that?
I need a Plot 101 class, now!

Re: Plot-Schmot

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I can't tell you how many times I've not finished a fic I've posted. It's one of the reasons I don't even attempt longer fics now--beyond two or three chapters, I know I'll never finish it. Such a problem! So I feel your pain.

I LOVED writing all the dialogue and trying to get the characters right. I loved all the internal monologues, and expressing feelings and showing the relationships between everyone, and having telling little details like body language and facial expressions. THAT was fun

These are the things I love so much as well!

But other people make it look so easy!!

I know! I wish I could hate them! I will take the 101 class with you. *sigh*

[samsom.livejournal.com]

I just want to write those moments, the emotion and conflict and love....why does plot have to be glaring at me from the corner of the room all the time, judging me?

I feel your pain.

*kicks plot in the shin*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

THIS. ALL OF THIS.

*joins in kicking*