lirazel | who wants to read my self-indulgent, stream-of-consciousness babble?

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who wants to read my self-indulgent, stream-of-consciousness babble?

Okay, I have recently been thinking about fictional characters I relate to, specifically how differently I relate to them than Elyssa does. Because I was thinking that she has a type and I have a type. She's all about Angel and Harry and Lee Adama. And I'm over here loving the stuffing out of Spike and Ron and Helo/Gaius/Billy/Felix/basically-all-the-other-male-characters. And the obvious difference is that she loves the Heroes and I love the sidekick/shadow character/whatever.

So of course I want to know why. And I have been digging deeply into this today.

And I have come to the conclusion that it is because I am a giant mess, okay?

Let's take Doctor Who, for example, because it is perfect for this discussion. I don't care at all about Rose. Like, I like her fine. But I love Martha Jones. And Donna. (And Amy, but she's more complicated, so we won't go there, and I think it's also significant that I am MAD about Rory.) And Martha is always overshadowed by Rose. She always feels like the spare, and she is always second-best. And she's there, in the background, being a bamf but not getting the credit for it (LET US NOT TALK ABOUT FAMILY OF BLOOD ET. AL. THE TREATMENT OF MARTHA JONES THERE I JUST NOT OKAY, OKAY?). And finally, finally she realizes that she just can't do it anymore. She can't keep taking care of the Doctor emotionally while he doesn't really give her anything back. And so she walks out the door. ONE OF MY FAVORITE MOMENTS IN ALL OF TV, OKAY? PERFECT, PERFECT MOMENT. And she goes out and makes a life for herself and becomes the star of her own story, and I flail with love. And then there's Donna, who everyone writes off as sort of shallow and silly, but who ends up being THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE UNIVERSE. She grows so much and becomes so much (and while I am still bitter at Ten, I will always be fond of him because he saw just how amazing she was. He thought she was brilliant AND HE WAS RIGHT). And I think this is why I react so strongly to what happened to her, that I hatehatehahatehatehatehatehatehate that all of that was stolen from her. Stolen from her. I really can't talk about this anymore. I'm gonna shut up about this now.

No segue whatsoever: the single TV quote that I have ever most related to in my life, the one that just sums me up in every single way comes from--surprise?--Caroline Forbes in the pilot of The Vampire Diaries.

Why is it that the guys I want, never go for me? I try so hard, maybe because I'm inappropriate and I always say the wrong things and Elena always says the right things. I mean, she doesn't even try and he just picks her!

This is me. Not romantically, really (although it probably does enter in), but just in life in general. I feel like I'm the one who is always trying so hard and wanting things so bad and is just so open and needy and weak. And other than school, no one seems to pick me. Lil Sis gave me a lecture the other night--while I was sobbing my eyes out--about how I need to be thicker skinned and not so sensitive because life would just be so much easier for me if I weren't so raw about everything and if everything didn't touch/hurt/move me so much (she meant this to be helpful, she said it out of love, so don't get mad at her). And she is so right. Life is so much easier for her, because she just doesn't care about things the way I do. And also she doesn't have mental health issues, but that's another story.

So am I just a big mess of raw emotions and sensitivity and almost pathologically low self-esteem and neediness and openness and everything else? Because it certainly feels that way sometimes. And that's why I relate to the characters I relate to. I relate to the ones you don't expect to be awesome, who don't come with their ready-made Heroic Narrative but just sort of blunder their way into the people they're going to be. Their narratives are always messier and involve more steps back, but I just get them.

So I get Spike, who was a giant loser while he was alive and worked his entire unlife to prove that he wasn't and who no one would ever, ever have expected to go out and fight for his soul and save the world. And I relate to Ron, who is always second-best and who is never as good at things as Harry (effortlessly--seriously that boy is good at so many things and so much better than everyone else and I just throw my hands up in the air) is even though Harry doesn't have to try half as hard as Ron does (and

ohwaluvusbab pointed out today that the reason we ship Ron/Hermione so hardcore is because HERMIONE SEES HIM. SHE SEES HIM. NOT AS AN EXTENSION OF HARRY OR HIS FAMILY, BUT HIM, OKAY? I CAN'T OKAY?). I like Caroline, who tries really hard and Bonnie, who is on the outside of things and is only called in when someone needs her skills (and again, this is one of the reasons I ship her with Jeremy, because that boy seems to really be seeing how completely awesome she is, apart from her magic). I love Dawn Summers, who everyone seems to think is just a hanger-on and an annoyance and an extension of Buffy (and do not even get me started on her relationship with Spike and how I BFF-ship them forever because they're weird friendless kids on the outside but they get each other). I like Gunn, who's the Badass Normal and is consistently just used as the muscle (OMG HOW PERFECT IS HIS S5 ARC? SO SO PERFECT AND OBVIOUS THAT THAT'S WHERE HE HAD TO GO). I like Blair Waldorf, who has always felt overshadowed by Serena, who everybody just loves. I adore Sam Seaborn, who never quite feels worthy of anything. I worship Han Solo, okay?

None of this means I don't like the heroes. I like Elena, a ton. I like Harry so very much (though mostly as a member of the Trio, I will admit). I even like Angel a whole lot when he's with the right people. I like Rose just fine. I could go on with this for a while. I almost never dislike the hero. Sometimes I even love them. But I rarely, rarely relate to them. Because I think The Heroes (in the traditional sense) just expect the world to move around them? I don't even know how to explain this, but they are the center of things and they know it. Now, obviously, this usually entails a great deal of responsibility that offsets that effortless talent or power that they have, so I'm not meaning that things are perfect for them or that they don't have struggles, because their lives often do suck. But their struggles, as profound as they are, are not my struggles.

There are a few seeming exceptions, I guess, things I need to talk about. For instance, I am mad about Veronica Mars. But I feel like I relate way more to Logan (Logan is basically Spike 2.0, so this should be a surprise to no one). And then there's Buffy versus Faith. I do not relate to Faith in any way, shape or form. I am way, way too much of the good girl loaded down with inhibitions and a profound belief in duty (yes, I actually do believe in duty, even if I don't talk about it like that very often because that word is just...not used nowadays) to ever see anything of Faith in myself. But I never related to Buffy at all until she ended up being a complete mess in S5 and on. Once she started feeling alone and isolated, depressed and weary, I was like OH I AM THERE. THAT'S MY GIRL. Before that, I was always viewing things from Spike's perspective, and have I ever related to a character the way I do Spike? Well, maybe Annie Sawyer. Who is also not a hero, or at least doesn't see herself that way. She is, in a lot of ways, the emotional support for the other characters. She's all about EMOTIONS and wanting to take care of people and though I'm more selfish than her, I am way, way more like her than anyone else on Being Human.

And I thought of this the other night at my Christmas party when my friends were talking about Harry Potter Houses, and I was like, "Sometimes I think I'm a Hufflepuff." And everyone was all "OH HELLS NO, GIRL, YOU ARE RAVENCLAW." And, like, I am. I get most of my self-worth from my relationship with my brain. I am smart. I was a good student. I am a bookworm. This is who I am and have always been. So, Ravenclaw, obviously. But on that "Tell me what House I'm in" meme a while back, several people said Hufflepuff, and I so see that. Addicted to harmony? Really valuing loyalty? I'm not so much the hard worker (I'm really a lazy bum, y'all. You don't even know), but the other qualities apply to me.

And because of all this, I feel like poor William, sitting there with my heart on my sleeve and begging--no pride at all--"All I ask is that you see me." That's what I want. I want to be seen. And so I love the characters who want to be seen, who are hungry to be seen, who yearn and long for it, but so often aren't. Those are my kids. Always.

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hahahah i mean i like every companion but rose and amy. i think who is actually a poor paradigm to use because it's like, the doctor takes hero narrative space but she's still a lead, and i don't conceptualize her as a sidekick. this is probably because i care more about the companions than the doctors. ladies. love the ladies.

that is all i have to say to this post, surprisingly.

the doctor takes hero narrative space but she's still a lead,

I've found over the past few years that I view the show fundamentally differently than most people. I really don't see the Doctor as a hero, which sounds weird. But I feel like the story is actually about the Companions (who I LOVE. THE LADIES!), not actually about the Doctor. He's there to serve their stories. So I never LOVELOVELOVED the Doctor until Eleven, and I don't even know what it is about Eleven, I would need some time to think about that. But I have always viewed the show as the Companions stories. Maybe because I care less than nothing about Hero Narratives?

But yeah, if you're viewing the Doctor as the hero, that wouldn't make sense. But since I never have, it works for my perspective.

i mean, i should say he occupies a 'savior' space, but i don't think of him the way i normally think of my heroes. i don't really care about the doctor. he saves people but i'm like but y tho. i care about the companions. they're far more interesting to me and always have been. part of my ish with s5 is that i never understand amy and i don't like it, so i don't really care for the season at large

Edited 2010-12-13 00:33 (UTC)

Agreed about the Companions being far, far more interesting. The Doctor, for me, has always been a vehicle through which they find their own stories.

I love your thoughts. Sooo much. I don't think I can narrow it down so easily for me as to who I relate to. I don't think I have a type so much as certain characters possess qualities that draw me in. It's not so much that Buffy is the hero (although I love that) but that she tries and she does it for others, she's so often thinking about others and just the way she emotionally deals. And Spike, the loser, with his heart on his sleeve. I get that.

But not so much types for me. That's interesting to think about. And I kinda wish I had the same breakthrough you're having. So many thoughts.

I think it makes sense for you to be Ravenclaw because yes, you're intellectual and creative. That's so you. But honestly? You're so Hufflepuff, too. (And I say this while acknowledging that I'm working more on the definitions I've read rather than familiarity with HP.)

Hard Work: I think you're one of those people who when you set your mind to doing something, you do it right and you give it your all and then just a little bit more.

Tolerance: I have trouble thinking of someone more tolerant than you. Just, when I get ranty and annoyed, I try to think about how you would approach it. I think you hear people's sides better than I do. And sure, you might get ranty in your head or be mad at people, but you don't take it out on others ever and you're often understanding of why people act the way they do.

Loyalty: Srsly? LOYAL. SFM. L is for Loyalty and Lauren.

Fair Play: This seems obviously true.

When I think about the two houses, I think how Ravenclaw is who you are alone while Hufflepuff is who you are with people.

(what am I even saying? I dunno!

Clearly my rambling is 'cause I haven't had quality Lauren talk in a while. ♥ )

Whatever, woman, I love it when you rant! ♥

This definitely doesn't apply across-the-board for characters I love. I can think of many ones I love that I don't relate to--Zoe from Firefly and Troy from Community and CJ Cregg and Amy Pond and Tami Taylor, etc., etc. But this does seem to be the key to whether I'll relate to them or not, which I find interesting.

I honestly think Buffy is not the hero type. To some people, the hero mantle rests naturally on their shoulders. Angel is this way, and Harry Potter. But Buffy always chafes against it, it never feels quite right, but she has no choice and so she keeps on trying. I think the last few seasons are the ones that show this the most, and that's why I love her most then. Does that make sense? Like, she's obviously awesome at being a hero, but it's much harder work for her to make herself think like a hero than it is for others.

YOU ARE SO SWEET. Talking so nice about me and making me blush? I adore you forever!

When I think about the two houses, I think how Ravenclaw is who you are alone while Hufflepuff is who you are with people.

This actually makes tons of sense to me, and I suspect that you might be right.

OH HAI I LOVE YOU!

I PICK YOU! Fandom picks you! Because you are awesome (and I'm obsessively careful about how I use that word).

Okay, I just needed to get that out there. Ahem.

I definitely know what you mean about relating to the underdogs and the sidekicks and the unexpected heroes. I'm right there with you. For me, it has a lot to do with relating to characters' insecurity. I mean, I love Cordelia, but I don't relate to her until she starts having to do things life hasn't prepared her for - on Ats, basically. She's mostly just comic relief until then, and I enjoy her, but I can't relate to her.

In fact, I definitely don't have to relate to characters to like them, because some characters I just love because they're competent and confident and kick butt. They're the characters I want to be, rather than the characters I am.

Yeah, I think I matched your stream-of-consciousness with my own.

Awww! So good to know! And I pick you back! And I am not as obsessively careful about how I use the word, but there's no doubt in my mind that you are awesome as well. :D

I am so with you on Cordy. 100%.

In fact, I definitely don't have to relate to characters to like them, because some characters I just love because they're competent and confident and kick butt. They're the characters I want to be, rather than the characters I am.

Yes! Thinking back I wasn't as clear as I meant to be about this in the post, but this is exactly where I am. I can love a character that's so much more confident than I am, but not in the same mad, related-ness-obsessed way that I do the underdogs. Those are my kids.

Yay stream-of-consciousness!

For "stream-of-consciousness babble," this makes a lot of sense. :) I never really thought about whether my relating to characters affects how I like them. I don't think it does, in my case. But I don't relate to a lot of characters. The only one that instantly comes to mind is Hermione Granger, whom I adore and look up to and kind of worship. The characters I most like are the ones whose motivations and actions I understand, even if I can't relate to them (although I suppose that means I relate to characters' specific qualities, if not their full personality). So like Buffy in S4-S7, Spike, Willow in S1-S3, Angel in AtS, Helo, Katniss, Ted Mosby, and most of all Harry Potter, who is the love of my life.

I completely agree about Lee Adama, btw. I never understood what was so attractive about that character, and the Lee/Kara drama was so annoying and dramatic and hurtful and pointless and endless.

Well, good! I'm fond of making sense!

Relating definitely affects the intensity of my liking. As much as I like, say, Veronica Mars (and the answer is tons and tons and tons), I can't have the intensity of relationship with her that I can with, say, Spike.

Btw, have you ever talked with

anythingbutgrey? Because Harry Potter is the love of her life, too.

I completely agree about Lee Adama, btw. I never understood what was so attractive about that character, and the Lee/Kara drama was so annoying and dramatic and hurtful and pointless and endless.

OMG YES. I always feel like I'm the only one who feels this way but YES.

This resonated so much with me, because I am so often inclined to like the same types of characters for that same reason! ♥ (Oh, Ron.) Wonderfully expressed. I've been pondering the idea of trying to write out why, exactly, I react so strongly & get so attached to particular characters, because we the fangirls spend so much time feeling these things but I very seldom think them out articulately.

RON. ♥

This is the first time it's sort of started to come together for me, so I'm really glad you found it coherent and could relate.

AND ALSO YOUR ICON IS LOVE.

Okay. I have so much to say. But first, I want to address this:

I need to be thicker skinned and not so sensitive because life would just be so much easier for me if I weren't so raw about everything and if everything didn't touch/hurt/move me so much

Not to go all weird and personal on you, but some years back, after going through some... bad stuff, I developed a bit of a personal theory.

My theory is this: some people are like crystals. Or pieces of glass. They're pointy and sparkly and feel everything keenly. In short: they're breakable. And life can do stuff to those people. It's like a piece of quartz getting put into one of those rock tumblers that shines pebbles--life bumps you around and breaks off all your pointy pieces and smoothes you out. Or seaglass--the waves and relentless blows smooth out the edges. But they also take away the shine and the points and angles that made that piece of glass or quartz unique. Is it easier to go through life with a smooth surface that nothing ever gets snagged on? and without pointy, easily chipped edges? Yes. I think it probably is. But I think what makes you remarkable is that living open and raw isn't easy--but you do it anyway. Because, the other thing that happens to pieces of crystal or glass is that they shatter--that they're utterly destroyed because they were too fragile for their environment (I always will love the song "Alison" by Elvis Costello just for the line "I know this world is killing you"--I love the idea that life or the world can be the perpetrator of cruelty/crime). Getting smoothed out may be preferable to shattering. I'm not sure. Either result seems sort of tragic to me. It's actually sort of like Donna in Dr. Who--she was going to shatter if they didn't smooth her out by removing all her memories. Tragic. (And btw, I CRIED so hard during that episode! It made me so mad. So mad.)

My point is, I think the people who get through life remaining open and raw are amazing. And I think ever trying to take that away would be tragic--because (and here I speak from experience) beneath the hard, smooth exterior, the memory of the points and angles remains. The underlying structure of the crystal that led to the creation of those angles is the same. The smoothness feels like a lie. So, shine on you crazy diamond.

Now. I don't think I need to say that I'm pretty similar in my ties to fictional characters--Spike! Ron! Donna! (though I do have a soft spot for Rose, but Donna is my favorite). I think my ability to relate to them comes from being the younger sister to a superstar-type kid (I mean, my sister's not a kid anymore, obvs. but, in many respects, she'll always be the daughter who taught herself to read at 2 years old... and I won't be). So, I understand feeling like the sidekick. I can relate. And I really can't relate to the hero (unless the hero is a screw up like Buffy or Veronica--in which case, I can relate to them even better than I can to a sidekick). I'm sorry. But I find it annoying that Harry is so good at everything. It's just not fair. *pouts*

Anyway. I'm right there with ya.

I love your thoughts. Always. ♥ And I think you're very right about life and our different approaches to it. My lows are very, very low, but my highs are so high that it feels like compensation. Would I want to give up those highs if I could get rid of the lows as well? I don't know. But I think I wouldn't.

So, shine on you crazy diamond.

HAHAHAH I LOVE YOU FOREVER. YOU, TOO. YOU, TOO.

Wow. Two? I hear about things like that, and I always find it hard to believe. Wow.

And I really can't relate to the hero (unless the hero is a screw up like Buffy or Veronica--in which case, I can relate to them even better than I can to a sidekick).

EXACTLY.

Oh, I know about Harry. He's obviously not a flat character because he's very well-drawn emotionally. But of course he just has to be fabulous at Quidditch as a first year, and of course he just has to be the only one to defeat Voldemort, and of course he has to be the fourth champion in the Tri-Wizard tournament, etc. It makes me roll my eyes and turn back to my boy Ron who always feels like he's no good at things. *huggles the poor boy*

Two? I hear about things like that, and I always find it hard to believe. Wow.

Yeah. My parents LOVE to tell this story of how my sister, when she was 3 years old, saw an ad in Highlights or some kids' magazine for a series of children's books (sort of like those Time/Life book series that you could get sent to your house). Well, my sister filled out the form and ordered the books--that was back in the day when they would still do "cash on delivery" orders. So, 3-6 weeks later, my parents were shocked and confused by the arrival of the books and the demand for payment. But then the delivery guy showed them the form, and in crayon and childlike handwriting, she'd filled it all out--including indicating that they'd be paid for COD.

If I weren't absolutely nuts about my sister, I'd probably resent her for being so amazing.

Oh! And I thought of what my type REALLY is--I love the underdog/sidekick, but it occurred to me that since a couple of my favorites are actually the protagonists that there had to be something else. And it came to me in a flash of light! (And it relates to my rock-smoothness theory! So, bonus.) Okay. What I love is a character who has been bumped around by life and who gives all the appearance of hardness, but deep down is an emotional mess and a big ol' softy. I especially love girls who fit this bill (Buffy, Veronica, Emily Gilmore--ESPECIALLY Veronica--there's no character ever who could be a closer incarnation of me than Veronica Mars. True facts.) but I also love boys who fit it (Spike, LaFayette from True Blood) So, specifically, I love someone who craves love and connection but is TERRIFIED of it. Someone who wants desperately to reach out, but just can't. Those are my people.

That is impressive. I'm glad you love her so much, though! Otherwise, that would be way hard to live with.

hat I love is a character who has been bumped around by life and who gives all the appearance of hardness, but deep down is an emotional mess and a big ol' softy. I especially love girls who fit this bill (Buffy, Veronica, Emily Gilmore--ESPECIALLY Veronica--there's no character ever who could be a closer incarnation of me than Veronica Mars. True facts.)

This is definitely one of my kinks as well. And I love Veronica, and I love you, so I am not surprised that you relate to her.

What I love is a character who has been bumped around by life and who gives all the appearance of hardness, but deep down is an emotional mess and a big ol' softy.

Ahhhhhh! So much yes! I love those characters because THEY ARE ME.

I don't read or watch Harry Potter, and I haven't seen Veronica Mars (though I've been meaning to), so I can't comment on those. But I completely agree with you about Lee Adama. And of course I like Spike much more than Angel, but I do like Angel on AtS. But I don't really think of Angel as a hero. Protagonist, yes. The thing with him is that he's a guy who has the outward persona of a hero, so people expect him to be one, but to me he seems more like an antihero disguised as a hero. And Spike has the outward persona of a roguish antihero, which again doesn't really quite fit with what he really is.

In general, I'm usually indifferent to typical 'hero' characters. I'm often more drawn to villains, antiheroes and morally ambiguous characters. But I do like heroes when they are complex and morally ambiguous and not your typical goody-to-shoes characters. I like it that they are so many shows today with villain-protagonists and antihero-protagonists.

And then there's Buffy versus Faith. I do not relate to Faith in any way, shape or form. I am way, way too much of the good girl loaded down with inhibitions and a profound belief in duty (yes, I actually do believe in duty, even if I don't talk about it like that very often because that word is just...not used nowadays) to ever see anything of Faith in myself. But I never related to Buffy at all until she ended up being a complete mess in S5 and on. Once she started feeling alone and isolated, depressed and weary, I was like OH I AM THERE. THAT'S MY GIRL.

I feel the same way about Buffy. She is the character in Buffyverse I relate to the most, but more so in later seasons as she became more and more messed up and isolated and emotionally closed. But I do like Faith as well, even though I'm nothing like her. In season 3, I actually liked her more than Buffy. I guess I just tend to empathize with characters who are really messed up and wounded and crazy ;)

I was never a person who was trying to get people to see her and pay attention to her. In school, and later, I'm used to attracting people's attention whether I like it or not, but so often not in a good way. And I'm used to being alone a lot. Maybe it comes from being an only child. I was never one of the sweet, tactful people who can get on with everyone. I am intense and opinionated, I have a temper that goes off sometimes, and while I think I'm friendly and I like to talk to people, and I am good at listening to people's problems, but I'm quite private when it comes to my own emotions. In primary school, I was considered very intelligent but crazy, a freak, and ugly, then in high school I was considered intelligent and beautiful but distant, difficult, unapproachable and a bit crazy, and later... I don't know, I think I'm very open and honest, and very friendly, except when it comes to my emotions, but men in particular are always accusing me of being brooding, difficult, cold, unromantic (which is so not true) and so on... it always puzzles me since I feel like I'm just being the normal me.

I'm usually fascinated by people who are free, rebellious, passionate, full of energy and lust for life. Maybe I'd like to be like that, but it doesn't work, because I have trouble opening up or feeling passion, except if it's about politics or something. When it comes to my emotions, especially love, I always had trouble showing them, and I often get scared that I am becoming numb and wonder if I can feel anything. But when I do feel something strong, I know I can be out of control. Unfortunately, that happens most often when I'm overcome with rage.. not a good thing. :(

In season 3, I actually liked her more than Buffy.

Oh, I couldn't stand her in S3. I was so firmly Team Buffy that season. Gah. She's my exact opposite in every way, and UGH. She was a fantastic character, but UGH. I finally came around to liking her on AtS and then in S7.

It definitely does indeed sound that you're a lot like late!season!Buffy. She's my fav. :D

OH MY GOD, LAUREN. ARE WE IN FACT THE SAME PERSON?

...

Seriously though. I was actually sitting in bed this morning thinking about this exact thing. No joke. I was sitting in bed thinking about you and Elyssa and character preferences. NO JOKE.

the reason we ship Ron/Hermione so hardcore is because HERMIONE SEES HIM. SHE SEES HIM. NOT AS AN EXTENSION OF HARRY OR HIS FAMILY, BUT HIM, OKAY? I CAN'T OKAY?

I am using this gif again because it alone expresses my feelings:

Same damn person.

Except. See, I am also a WEIRD amalgamation of both 'types', because while Ron/Spike/Gaius are my boys, Harry/Angel/Lee are ALSO MY BOYS. And I think I've figured it out. In my social life outside my family, I've always been a pretty big loser with a heart of glass, but with my own FAMILY... See, I moved with my parents to another country when I was like 3, which means I've never met some of my extended family, but even despite that, they all apparently ~love and worship me because I am so ~smart and beautiful and talented~ and they want my fucking cousins to grow up to be like me. Which, I mean, should be a good feeling, right? Uh, no. And this is why I completely understand someone like Lee Adama who has the whole fleet masturbating over him because he is the Admiral's fucking son who is so handsome and good and such an amazing pilot and meanwhile he's thinking, "What the fuck, bitches, you don't even KNOW me." And if you really did, you wouldn't feel that way. (Which is why he is in love with Kara. She does not give a fuck.) It is an equally isolating place to be.

I find it fascinating you find it so difficult to relate to Faith though, since this quote: Why is it that the guys I want, never go for me? I try so hard, maybe because I'm inappropriate and I always say the wrong things and Elena always says the right things. I mean, she doesn't even try and he just picks her!

-- is EXACTLY HOW FAITH THINKS. She ROTS inside her own sense of inferiority. Her rage at Buffy in "Enemies" is palpable. Buffy will always be 'right', Faith will always be 'wrong'. Buffy has people who love her. Faith has jacksquat. Buffy's a hero. Faith's a killer.

Ugh. So many feelings. Shutting up.

I agree with so much of this post. What you say about Ron and Han Solo (and Martha Jones and Donna (though I haven't actually MET them and yet I'm so excited)) is very true. They blunder. Ron and Harry are both supposed to be average wizards - and this is true. Harry is good at DADA and Quidditch - those are his strong suits. We never really hear about Ron's strong suits as much but he's certainly not at Neville's level, for example. He's quite competent and can keep up with Harry no problem, and as soon as someone bothered to teach him things like Expecto Patronum and Expelliarmus, he picked them up quite well. But he doesn't get the attention (from the books or from other characters) EXCEPT FOR HERMIONE. MY GOD. HOW I SHIP THEM. LOVE STORY LOVE. Ahem. And the same goes for Han Solo. What a blunderer. His ship's falling to pieces, his plan to rescue the princess has gone all wrong and what does he do? *wipes away a tear* He chases into a hallway of stormtroopers to give his friends a chance to get back to the ship.

HOW DO YOU NOT LOVE THESE CHARACTERS? My heart feels bigger just talking about them. And yes, I feel that I would end up in Ravenclaw (though a tiny insecure part of me thinks I wouldn't be smart enough and would end up begging the Hat to put me in Gryffindor) but that brings me to Luna. Who is outcast in so many ways and who gets unexpected friendship and who shows it without thinking. She could easily be this stuck up, closed off girl who decided to be as nasty to others as others were to her. BUT NO. She helps Harry rescue his godfather - or tries to. These characters are not the centric heroes of the story, you're right, but like Neville - another underappreciated character if ever there was one - but they add more than story to the story. They've got the heroes backs. I mean, where would Luke Skywalker be without Han Solo? Engine dust, that's what (thank you, end of A New Hope when Han Solo semi-takes out Vader).

I share your love so much, if you didn't get that :)

"And I have come to the conclusion that it is because I am a giant mess, okay?"

Hey. I resemble that remark! ;)

I love Dawn Summers, who everyone seems to think is just a hanger-on and an annoyance and an extension of Buffy (and do not even get me started on her relationship with Spike and how I BFF-ship them forever because they're weird friendless kids on the outside but they get each other)

I was just thinking of this in relation to a comparison I was doing in my head between Spike and Damon (who I both love) but I was saying how Spike was able to have this wonderful friendship with Dawn that I really, truly believe was separate from his relationship with Buffy and his desire for her) and how awesome that is and who Damon is totally not capable of that.

I don't even know how to explain this, but they are the center of things and they know it.

Yes. Because very few traditional heroes (by which I mean, part of a more classic heroic arc) ever have questions about their ability to impact the world.

I don't really have anything to add but this is a really well done self-indulgent stream-of-consciousness babble; I liked it.

Excellent post is excellent! Thinking about my own favourite characters I've come to the conclusion that if there is a morally grey character on the canvas I will almost always be drawn to them. Folks who put up a front of having a hard exterior, who make questionable decisions, but who also have a ~secret vulnerable side to them. My kids will always be the anti-heroes: the Jack Sparrows, the Adelle DeWitts, the Anya Christina Emanuella Jenkins', the Gaius Baltars, etc. I myself do not act in a way that would compare to many of the characters I like watching, but my own thinking is very much coloured in shades of grey rather than black and white. I find these types of people much more interesting than most traditional hero types.

I also have an incredible soft spot for characters who are a bit selfish and self-centred, but at the same time insecure and vulnerable - because they mirror a lot of my own issues. I will defend Rachel Berry from Glee to the death because I totally get where that girl is coming from. And when it comes to Community, even though I like Britta I'll always be an Annie kind of girl because I understand and relate to her so much more.

I just saw

mollivanders link to your post and I had to pop over and read it. Can I just say a big YES to all of this? I've always found it hard to relate to the heroes (and like you I enjoy them, but they never really become that person for me, you know?). The characters that I feel for the most, the ones that I see myself in tend to be the ones with no self-esteem. The ones who screw up all of the time and sort of stumble into adulthood rather than sail through it like it's the easiest thing in the world.

That's why Donna Noble with all of her longing and humor and epicness that she doesn't even realize she has will always be my favorite companion, even though I love all of the other ladies. And why Ron will always be my favorite of the trio. And why I'll never love any of the Buffyverse characters as much as I love Anya and Xander and Dawnie. (Oh man, and Gunn! It made me incredibly happy that you mentioned him.)

So basically, thanks for this awesome post. It's always interesting to me to really stop and think about why I like the things I like. I'm sure I'll be pondering this for the rest of day. :D

Edited 2010-12-13 16:47 (UTC)

And, like, I am. I get most of my self-worth from my relationship with my brain. I am smart. I was a good student. I am a bookworm. This is who I am and have always been.

I relate to this, and I think that's why I'm attracted to characters who are diligent, hard-working, and responsible. I love Jack Carter, because he is Sheriff Responsible amongst a group of impractical intellectuals. I liked James Norrington better than Jack Sparrow.

I also like characters who are career-oriented and educated. Sure, sometimes people don't have the opportunities or money to follow a certain career or obtain higher education, but I don't like characters who have the doors open to them and blow it off.

I like characters who practice to be good at what they do, not magically have an ability appear out of thin air. The practice doesn't always have to be on-screen (because that would be really boring to watch). For example, we're told that Gibbs was a Marine Scout Sniper and would have had decades of training and practice before the show began. So, when he's able to shoot down a helicopter from thousands of yards away using a wonky rifle on horseback, I believe it, because he has the education/background/training for it. It's not an ability that appeared out of nowhere. Ditto Ziva's abilities. Even with Buffy, who technically had her superpowers appear by magic, I like and appreciate that we regularly saw her training in order become even better at what she did. Despite occasionally complaining about the practice, she still did, and I respected her for that.

I also prefer characters who are law-abiding and rule-following; I'm not attracted to the "rebel" or the "rule-breaker." Again, if there is a *very* good reason, like someone's life is at stake, I can understand not following procedure or doing something illegal. For instance, I adored the moment in the last season finale of Psych when Lassiter basically said screw protocol and went off to rescue O'Hara. Lassie's willingness to break the rules to save Juliet had such great impact, *because* he is usually such a procedure-oriented, red-tape type.

Of course, there are some exceptions, but the canon has to give me a good reason for that person's behavior. Anya is a good example, because she genuinely had the inability to comprehend society's rules and manners, since she spent over a thousand years as a demon. Parker also had such a screwed-up childhood that she couldn't connect to people nor understand what she did was wrong; she had the naivete of a five- or six-year-old (although she is getting better, which is character development I like to see). I guess, for me, there's a difference between characters who don't understand how to be practical and mature and those who just don't wanna.

In conclusion, I generally like responsibility and maturity. I also kind of hate it when the jackass character gets rewarded--with love, friendship, whatever--and the responsible guy or girl ends up alone, unloved, and/or dead, unless the story intends to be darkly ironic.

Ron. Ronnnnnn. I love him so much. But I also looooove Harry. And Hermione.

I often go for the sidekicks as well and I totally understand your attraction to them.

OMG are you in my brain or something? Because this is eerily like me. *loves*

That Caroline quote is EXACTLY why I love her so hard. (Well, I also love that she's being awesome now, because it gives me hope that someday I can be that awesome, though preferably without having to become a vampire.) I totally identify with her feeling second-best and "why don't the guys I like ever like me?" is something I have literally said to my therapists.

I feel like I'm the one who is always trying so hard and wanting things so bad and is just so open and needy and weak.

Me too!! Me too!! Except maybe not the open part? Because I'm more like

blackfrancine said, with the hardness that hides the vulnerability. I want to be loved but am too afraid to show it. Which is why Buffy is MY GIRL FOREVER. Also Veronica. OMG her trust issues and her cynicism? Yep, that's me.

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