lirazel | I have read #37!

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I have read #37!

And here are some initial thoughts! I may have more later. We shall see.

Thoughts About Buffy and Spike Because Who Am I

- Buffy fantasizing about Spike cracked me up a lot. Mostly because the idea of Buffy going all googly-eyed over Spike while he’s too busy taking care of business to notice is the most hysterical thing ever. And yes, I think it’s significant that after the OTT spacefrakking, she’s imagining something sweet and tender and passionate with Spike—his hand on her cheek while they make love in her mind is beautiful.

- I absolutely adored Buffy calling Spike her dark place. That’s such a huge realization for her—that she needs a dark place and that that’s okay. It reminds me of her telling him in “After Life” that the world is too hard and bright and how in the early part of that season, she kept running to him in the night and having these very soft moments (before everything went to hell, that is). Also, what is S7 but one long sustained scene of Buffy having huge responsibilities and horrible amounts of stress and then her retreating back to Spike so that she can be alone and weak? As

laeria says, having just started S7 for the first time (I hope it's okay to quote you, hon, but you are eloquent and awesome and I can't resist):

The last few eps [Showtime - Killer in Me] have basically been saying "Look how bleak and awful and frayed everything is. See? Now have five to ten minutes of perfectly organic and love-filled oasis of calm, fun, natural Buffy/Spike togetherness. Now black to the soulless desert of joyless suffering that is everybody else!" and I love this. The Scoobies deserve to feel hopeless and helpless and useless after what they've put Buffy through last season; Buffy certainly deserves having a Special Corner of Giddy Serenity, and Spike deserves being that corner. It's all fair.

And what I love most is how Buffy ~likes~ Spike now, it's what I always craved and never quite got, because, yeah, she used to trust him, use him, confide in him, lose herself in him, find herself in him and liberate his kittens - but, while she probably sometimes did like him, she never let herself show it until now, and it's so relaxing. Rewarding. The likingness.

YES. Spike is the one she’s never afraid to tell everything. "But you were the guy I told things I wasn’t supposed to tell." YES YES YES YES. He is her confidant, the one she can tell anything, because he will never judge her. Because he really has seen the best and the worst of her and he still accepts her, still gives her that place to rest. Where do the strong go when they need to be weak? Buffy goes to Spike, where she’s safe to be herself and to rest. I LOVE IT.

- I can’t believe that other people really haven’t figured out WHY the fantasizing scenes happen when they do. I see people complaining about when she zones out—“But I want to know what the plan is!” Well, duh. Of course you do. We all do. But it’s just like in the show where they would say, “Here’s the plan” and immediately end the scene so that we don’t hear about the plan before it unfolds. That would be boring. We have to see it when it happens. So it makes total sense that that’s the moment where she zones out.

- Did the fantasizing scenes feel like fan service? Well, yeah, they actually did. I honestly think it was Joss balancing out the two ships, as he did in the last few episodes of the show. And I’m okay with that. I think we all know that he’s never going to come down for one ship or the other—he can’t, without causing a huge backlash. I know some people are saying that they think the point of this is to run all of the ships into the ground to try to wrestle back control of his narrative, and yeah, I can kind of see that. But if Joss thinks he can actually accomplish that, he knows nothing about fandom at all. Shippers are gonna ship, y’all. It’s what we do. The only “end game” relationship I could see Joss writing for Buffy would be having her end up with Xander (which I DO NOT want to happen for various reasons ranging from me not thinking he’s nearly good enough for her to him always being the one to put her on a pedestal and that not being healthy in a relationship to it feeling like a reward for the Nice Guy. But most importantly, it would mean stealing him from Dawn—which would piss me off to no end—or mean that Dawn’s dead—which would piss me off to no end) and I don’t think that’ll happen. So Buffy will never end the series settled into a relationship. Not gonna happen, and I don’t think most of us particularly care whether that happens in canon—that’s what we’ve got fic for. As long as our ship’s respected, we don’t care, right? And Joss is taking care to give us enough hope that there’s no backlash. And yes, it’s kind of sad that in trying to please everyone he ends up pissing off everybody, but that’s the nature of things. So it’s all good.

- They are wearing the same colors. I LOVE when they do that. Like in OMWF where they look so good in red together. Hells yes.

- But honestly, the best parts of the Buffy and Spike-ness are the realistic scenes. The two of them BANTERING YES YES YES and finishing each others’ sentences and teasing each other and carrying on! They’re so very comfortable and casual with each other—Spike laying back with his hands behind his head, Buffy leaning her chin on her folded arms on the back of the chair. I could watch them like this forever.

- “Not alone you don’t!” OH SPIKE. I’m gonna quote Emmie for a little bit because she is a genius, okay?

One of the reasons I love them together is that Buffy doesn't hide her dark side from him, isn't afraid to let him see all of her. Spike's seen the best and the worse of her, literally, and he knows with perfect clarity exactly what she is: one hell of a woman. And Buffy knows this. That intimacy that was established in Touched? That is unique to Spike and Buffy. No one knows her that way, no one has followed her into the dark place and loved her so unconditionally.

This isn't to say that Xander couldn't love her like that. It's just that when Buffy retreats, Xander doesn't follow. This happened in A Beautiful Sunset. Xander will tell Buffy he's worried about her spending too much time alone, but he's not going to jump on Buffy's back when she tries to fly off and say, "Not alone, you don't!" Buffy is a character who is constantly retreating and going it alone. Spike's good for her because she'll walk off into the shadows and he'll follow her--heh, it's the good kind of stalking. And I understand why Buffy does this--she emotionally retreats, she goes off alone and tells others to not follow her, but the last thing she wants is to be alone. So it's a gift when she tells others to stay back, but that they come to her anyways. But hey, Xander does demand to be taken along in this issue, too. It's just not as personally connected to Buffy as the way Spike does it. Spike is closer to Buffy because he refused to respect her boundaries and had to learn how to pull back, to not be so close to her, skin to skin, shadow to shadow. With Xander, he would need to learn when to not respect her boundaries so unfailingly--to get in her face and not let her be alone when she's bent on it. But then, I don't think Xander is going to be knocking on that boundary door anytime soon because he's with Dawn....

Buffy can't walk out into the light metaphorically. This isn't about walking away from her darkness and into the light. The darkness is inside her. And I'm not talking about the Slayer darkness. I'm talking about the human darkness inside all of us. The pettiness, the resentment, the anger, the rage, the selfishness, the frustration, the hate, the lust--all the human darkness. Buffy can't walk away from the dark inside her because it's not something to be excised, to be drowned in light, but something to be embraced. She's ashamed of her darkness and she's afraid to show it to Xander and Willow.

That dark place? That's the last wall of intimacy for Buffy....Spike's already in the dark place...

- “Spike’s touching my butt.” TOO FUNNY, especially when contrasted with the words she thinks right before and the super serious look on her face. Why are these two so hilarious? I do not understand. But I love it.

- FIGHTING SIDE BY SIDE. YES YES YES YES YES YES. That is what I ALWAYS want for my ship and I will take it over OTT and OOC pronouncements of “bestest day ever!”s any day.

- “My hero.” Apparently, Scott Allie wrote that line. Mr. Allie, I take back every mean thing I ever said about you. LOOK AT YOU, EMBRACING THE GENDER REVERSALS. There are absolutely no words to describe how much I absolutely flat-out adore the gender reversals these two do. NO WORDS. And that “My hero”? Where Spike’s the impressed girlfriend? GREATEST THING EVER OKAY?

Some Thoughts About the Other, Less Important Things

- People keep getting confused about the “I speak Fyarl.” I don’t get why they’re confused. Spike’s clearly explaining that he speaks demon languages, he hears what’s going on in the demon world. Plus, it’s a great throwback to “A New Man,” where he’s the only one who understands what Fyarl!Giles is saying. I love those sorts of tie-ins.

- Xander/Dawn is cuteish but a little too sappy for me. Besides, I still think Dawn can do better. But I’m pretty whatever about it.

- Faith and Giles. Faith seems really down, understandably. I like this Faith, though I’m still angry that she and Buffy aren’t friends. I really want that for them. Also Giles has some sort of plan, clearly. He and Faith will team up to do something. We’ll see.

- Angel is just a ginormous mess, and I feel so sorry for his fans and so glad that Elyssa isn’t reading the comics because it would hurt you so bad, babe. There’s really nothing good here. He makes messes, he gets discouraged, he’s being manipulated by the universe. None of it is good, and he’s not in character at all, and it does not make me happy. Not to mention that I’m still pissed that there’s still be no mention of Connor or Cordy or any of the people who have been his life for years. It’s very discouraging, and I hope he comes back from it in S9, but it’ll be too late for the writers to claim that he’s in character at all.

- The Master being back still seems random and weird to me. I'm sure there's a big metaphorical point behind it, but I haven't seen any evidence in the text to explain what it is yet. I'm sure Maggie and Emmie will explain it to me later, though. Probably it's just tied to the "back to the beginning" stuff, but is that what S7 was supposed to be about? Whatever.

- The plot is still silly and unwieldy to me. I feel like it’s all meta and that doesn’t necessarily make for a good story. Meh. I’m just here to make sure my boy and my girl aren’t ruined beyond all recognition and also to make sure Dawn doesn’t die. Those are the things I care about because who I am I but a huge stan for the Summers girls and Mr. the Bloody.

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I LOVE THESE POSTS!

And I so loved the Buffy/Spike interaction here. So much love.

Oh look, I get quoted talking about the Dark Place (that sounds like a club--it should be a club!). The whole intimacy dark place stuff has been pretty much the only thoughtful meta I've put out so far. Glad it makes sense!

Such a happy review! Yay!

I also did buy this issue, and can definitely say we got some great moments. But, ironically, Buffy's fantasy about kissing Spike is not one of them for me. It's that "Dark Place" line. I kinda hate it. I don't want to harsh your squee, and I totally understand where you are coming from, but I much, much prefer "I can be alone with you here" for the same effect.

I am going to try to live in your positive world about that one, because overall, it was pretty satisfying. "Not alone you don't", and "my hero" were definitely the highlights for me, and they were awfully high and bright.

*hugs*

- I absolutely adored Buffy calling Spike her dark place.

It's such strange wording that I kinda half-way expect something to come from it. But this is the Whedonverse so who knows.

I enjoyed your review very much, and your tags made me laugh out loud!!

Yay! Nothing to add. I love everything you wrote.

I think where season 8 fails is its huge scope: a lot of shit happened. Almost too much, so that now that we're at the end of the season there's so much to wrap up and tie off that everything is dense and meta-y instead of tightly written.

And Twilight sucked. Any discussion of where S8 fails has to discuss that the spakking is quite possibly some of the worst shit ever put down in comic book form.

But just because we have overreaching meta-y criticisms doesn't mean we can't squee over small character moments, and that's what this issue did well: Spike and Buffy were Spike and Buffy, rather than the dickwad formerly known as Angel and This Year's Bella Swann. I still can't take any of her dialogue to Angel in #36 seriously because it's so obvious she's out of her fucking mind (wow, I have a potty mouth this morning, don't I?) because the next thing we see of her in #37 is sex fantasies with Spike and calling him the place where she can be safe and dark. Sorry, BR forum, but I find you still delusional and amusing in the same way I find Jackass amusing: I can't look away, no matter how much I want to.

Scott Allie won my heart this issue, and I wish I could take away the tag calling him a douchebag. He gets the gender reversal, and Emmie's been telling him "MOAR!" so he's hearing that that is why we love Spike and Buffy - because they challenge the norm and have an inherent intimacy that no one else has. He was a big boy in the lettercol this month, so gotta give props where props are due. He manned up, realized he wasn't being professional, and this month I think I'm gonna point to his answer and ask if Georges Jeanty has anything else he'd like to man up to (damn, I'm gonna need a Slayalive account now, right?).

Angel is still the dickwad of the moment. And I have a My Little Pony plastic flying Lion toy somewhere in storage I wish I could find so I could make snarky icons calling Angel "DADDY!" because there is SO MUCH LOLZ with Angel's being such a dupe. I laughed mean-spiritedly when the kitty-bird-lion thing showed up, I'll admit it, and no one should be surprised by that. Gotta wonder where Connor is and if we'll actually see anything addressed as to why AtS Angel is nowehere to be found. The plus side of dickwad Angel: He makes Spike look good.

To end on a happy note, how awesome were Spike and Buffy in the end? Double teaming the Master, fighting side by side, being awesome? And the "dark place" line fully represents the best of the late season Spike/Buffy relationship = he was the person she could be alone with, with whom she could tell what was too painful or too dark to share with everyone else. I think the phrase was used almost synonymously with "you were my safe place": this is the positive light the phrasing implied, and it fully recognizes the scope and breadth of what the Spuffy relationship is to us. It's a line I'm extremely impressed with, because it's what we've been saying for a long, long time. I'd like to think that people's letters to Scott helped influence that particular line, because like "my hero" it is so key to why we love Spuffy.

I think I just wrote my reaction post. May just cut and paste like a lazy bum and point to your LJ and say "Lauren made me do it."

Edited 2010-10-07 14:58 (UTC)

I just re-read it and I had a big goofy grin on my face the whole time! Not even because of the fantasies, really (although I do love the attention to detail there) but because: scenes! Together! Action! Banter! Such undeniable sparkage!

I loved that "dark place" line, I found it very intimate and comforting, but I'm not 100% sure she said it out loud! When I first read through it, I figured the kiss panel was the only part that was a fantasy, and I based that on the light being all glowy and the decor disappearing. But

slaymesoftly pointed out that Buffy gets up and takes the towel off her shoulders when she apologizes to Spike. When it flashes back to reality, she's still in the chair. So, possibly she never got up in the first place.

(See, this is why I get annoyed by dream sequences!)

I'm so glad we got such an awesome Spuffy fix this month, because it'll counter-balance all the fretting I'm about to do about Joss possibly killing off Dawn. *wobbly lip*

I enjoyed your post, I like how you're staying positive about this. Personally I think Joss is just throwing us a bone. But is a nice bone, nonetheless.

I agree on the whole "dark place" it is something quite important to them. It's what keeps them real. And also on the gender reversal and how wonderful it is (is actually one of the top reasons I love Spuffy in general).

And Spike was touching her butt!

So Buffy will never end the series settled into a relationship.

Nope. Also, this isn't the end of the series, just S8. If Buffy did end up with either at the end of this run, it would be a big red flag with YOUR SHIP IS GOING DOWN written in black on it.

I'm glad you're feeling better, but I'll never be able to look past the treatment of Angel in these. And I still can't believe Joss would be so petty as to ignore Cordelia completely. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it's still disappointing. I hate having my worst suspicions about a creator essentially confirmed.

Oh, I love your thoughts. Everyone has such great thoughts this week! You, Emmie, Maggie - haven't read Lexi's yet but I imagine her thoughts are also win - makes me so hopeful for this issue! (I haven't gotten mine yet so it will be a bit before I can do anything besides praise everyone else's reactions)

I absolutely adored Buffy calling Spike her dark place. I keep hearing about this line! It is, indeed, the perfect line. I don't really get why some are upset about it. Why does a dark place have to be negative? We sleep in the dark. We rest our heads on soft pillows and shut out the light, just for a few hours. We avoid the brightness when we need quiet, contemplation, peace. We share our most intimate acts and whispered words in the dark. When I think of a dark place, I think of someplace intimate, hushed, close. If Spike is that intimate space for Buffy, then my ship just won. The END. Write it down, motherfuckers. :D

They are wearing the same colors I hadn't noticed that - gosh, so cute.

“My hero.” Apparently, Scott Allie wrote that line. I will join you in the Let's All Congratulate Scott Allie on Finally GETTING IT hip hip parade. Seriously, Kudos to Scott and his writerly chops. I don't care if he champions Spuffy or not - clearly he gets their dynamic, and that is WIN. GO SCOTT

Besides, I still think Dawn can do better. Well I still think that Dawn should do Andrew, and always will - but sigh I will not get what I want either. *g* Dawn/Xander has grown on me marginally - it's the best I can do.

Angel is just a ginormous mess, and I feel so sorry for his fans As one of his fans, I am swiftly approaching a feeling of devastation where Angel is concerned. Since I haven't read the issue yet I don't have up-to-date thoughts, but everyone else in this story has a reasonable explanation as to why they've behaved as they have. Everyone, that is, except Angel. If I round out Season 8 feeling as though it has failed as a narrative, it will not be due to things I hear often like pacing or too many plot twists or too many characters. It will be the sum total of what has happened to Angel during these last 4 years. Honestly, it kind of breaks my heart. And if it's not explained, if it's not brought back 'round to where Angel departed from his own universe with solid reasoning appropriate to his character, then I am simply going to have to be done with the comics. Is that an ultimatum? Why yes, it appears exactly so. No amount of great Spuffy banter or side-by-side fighting or sweet Dawn scenes or Xander/Willow friendship scenes or Andrew superhero wannabe stuff will be able to make up for the EPIC FAIL that is Angel's characterization. I'm a small fish in a large pond filled with big fish in this regard, I know. I don't expect the crowd I run with will feel the heartbreak I do over what's been done to Angel. I'm used to being lonely in that regard, so it's ok. But I am sad. I miss my Angel. I wish I knew where he went, or knew that folks in charge care that he's gone.

Edited 2010-10-07 16:26 (UTC)

Loved reading your thoughts. And yes, daydreamy Buffy fantasizing about working Spike is such a HA! moment.

I like Xander and Dawn but I haven't read the latest few issues so I dont know how cutesy they could be. I would be upset if something were to happen to the two of them. (Unless of course, Connor shows up and him and Dawn finally meet and sparks fly and then they get married and have pretty blue eyed babies)

YES!Positive thinky thoughts! Lovely. I absolutely adorethe Spuffy scenes. Favourite moment: "Spike's is soo touching my butt!"

It will never not be okay to quote me. I am very quotable. *smug*

I doubt I'll read comics after I finish the season (I'm at Storyteller now), especially not till they end for good, as I do not real well with WIPs.

[I'll also watch Angel, except for the season where all the nasty things happen to Cordelia. I SPOIL MYSELF BECAUSE I CARE. [Seriously, life sucks enough without Whedon's murky id blindsiding me completely.]]

Anyway, I love your reviews of them, and really really like the bit about "my dark place", because I LOVE the idea of a dark place being a good thing, because why shouldn't it be? Light can hurt. Vampires are nocturnal, Buffy deals with vampires, there's no reason for her not to prefer the dark and subvert this ancient and annoying dichotomy. Also, he is, isn't he. Spike's not a clean and well-lighted place, he's a dingy dark comfy place and that is okay.

[Buffy may be his clean well-lighted place, but with dingy dark corners and something stirring beneath the floorboards.]

Loved the whole post, loved all the comments. The meta on this "season" is going to continue long after it finally ends. :)

This entire post = WIIIIIINNN.

Mostly because the idea of Buffy going all googly-eyed over Spike while he’s too busy taking care of business to notice is the most hysterical thing ever.

I KNOW RIGHT. THEY'RE SO BAD AT COMMUNICATING. MY KIIIIIIDS.

Where do the strong go when they need to be weak? Buffy goes to Spike, where she’s safe to be herself and to rest. I LOVE IT.

I LOVE IT TOO. As you know, I am ALL ABOUT "I can be alone with you here", so this "dark place" line pretty much makes my life complete. I don't really get how it can be seen as a BAD thing either. Buffy and Spike are Buffy and Spike because their respect each other's aloneness. It's so much more poignant (and meaningful) than some conventional romantic relationship where they're shouting their love to the skies. Um, no.

they are wearing the same colors. I LOVE when they do that. Like in OMWF where they look so good in red together.

OMG YOU ARE SO RIGHT. I LOVE it when my ships do this. OTP. Ugh.

They’re so very comfortable and casual with each other—Spike laying back with his hands behind his head, Buffy leaning her chin on her folded arms on the back of the chair. I could watch them like this forever.

Oh, right there with you. It makes me sigh like a sap. WHATEVER I EXIST ON BREADCRUMBS OKAY.

Spike is closer to Buffy because he refused to respect her boundaries and had to learn how to pull back, to not be so close to her, skin to skin, shadow to shadow.

YES. This is such a great insight. And SO much more interesting than all those other relationships in which the two people have to make an effort to try and get in the other person's head; Buffy and Spike have to make an effort NOT to get too close.

“My hero.” Apparently, Scott Allie wrote that line. Mr. Allie, I take back every mean thing I ever said about you. LOOK AT YOU, EMBRACING THE GENDER REVERSALS.

I take back every bad thought I ever thought about the guy. Because FUCK YES GENDER REVERSAL HELLO I LIVE FOR IT.

Basically, this issue just made me 'awww' the entire way through. My ship KILLED IT, YO.

I can't even get worked up about the assassination of Angel anymore. That's not my guy. End.

I love reading reaction posts!

The "dark place" line made me uneasy not because of the idea that Buffy can trust him to accept the worst of her- b/c that's awesome- but b/c the phrasing implies to me that she only wants him around when she needs the dark. I'm glad that she has Spike for her dark place, but I'd also like her to acknowledge that she wants him around for the good "light place" parts, too. I agree with the comment above that "I can be alone with you here" is a better phrasing of the "dark place" concept without the sketchy "I-only-want-you-around-at-certain-times" implications.

I'd really like to know what Spike said after she called him her dark place...and see the look on his face...and see how exactly he transitioned into explaining the world save-age.

I loved the "my hero" line! I also love how Spike allowed himself to be vulnerable in the "can you think of a single creature..." and "I'm sorry, I'm still feeling..." panels (his slouched, defeated posture and her hand on his shoulder! I love it!). He tried to keep his emotions about Buffy in check for so much of S7 and I love that he's finally standing up for himself and telling her when she's hurting his feelings.

I also *love* how in both of Buffy's fantasies, Spike is showing initiative in the love-making (holding her face during the kiss, being on top). I can imagine Buffy fantasizing about Spike in S7 but with herself as the initiator, like so much of S6. The comic fantasies show them as equals (finally!) in sex/love, and it implies that she doesn't feel any inappropriateness from the AR.

Oh this comic made me happy. I don't expect it to last, but I'll enjoy it while it does.

On a side note, when I came home today for fall break my mother goes, "By the way, I taped a version of Macbeth with Patrick Stewart that was really creepy and well done, you might want to see it..." and I was like, "Bwahaha, I heard about that last night!"

Hey ! I just want to comment this, because aww, I love your review :)

“My hero.” Apparently, Scott Allie wrote that line. Mr. Allie, I take back every mean thing I ever said about you. LOOK AT YOU, EMBRACING THE GENDER REVERSALS. There are absolutely no words to describe how much I absolutely flat-out adore the gender reversals these two do. NO WORDS. And that “My hero”? Where Spike’s the impressed girlfriend? GREATEST THING EVER OKAY?

That's one of my favorites parts ♥ "My hero", this line is just *perfect*. Thanks to Scott Allie !

I love the fantasizing scenes :D I want so much seeing them together *sigh* (okay, I'm not sure that my English is good here, but you get the idea :) ). I love their dynamic in #37 ♥

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