I have read #36!

[lirazel]

No, really, I've read the whole thing! And though I still don't even like the idea that the comics even exist (like I've said a thousand times, I'm perfectly happy with the "ending" we got the first time--Buffy, standing on the edge of the carter-that-was-the-hellmouth, smiling and full of hope, her whole life and endless possibilities ahead of her), and I doubt I'm ever going to love them (and I still think there are major, major pacing problems and my complaints about some of the feminism stuff still stand and I think it was a mistake to draw it out this long), I want to add my voice to those who say, "Buck up, kiddos! Things might just work out after all!"

But this isn't meta. It isn't even insightful, probably. I mean, while I have paid detailed attention to all that's come before, I've only read, like, two other installments. So I'm not exactly knowledgeable. This is just a bunch of random thoughts I had while reading, and many of them have been said better and more eloquently by other people. I doubt I have anything original to say.

+ First of all, there is no way we're supposed to be taking Buffy's interactions with Angel seriously. No. Way. The art is too over-the-top for me to even begin to. Buffy's face? Seriously? She never looks like that, all googly-eyed. She doesn't even look like that with Angel on the show--never in the earlier seasons, never when he comes back. Never with Riley, never with Spike. The only time she comes close is during "Something Blue." (Btw, I love you, SMG. You are fantastic, and I wish I could see you making these faces because I know if you were making them, everyone would acknowledge that this can't be serious. Also, you and your baby are adorable!)

+ The dialogue is ridiculous, too. To wit:

This is the weirdest, bestest, weirdest best day of my life. What you've done for me, I can't describe. I can't PRONOUNCE. You gave me perfection, and you gave it up. Jesus, Angel. That's not just the love of my life. That's the guy I would live it with.

Yeah. Right. Even at her schmoopiest, this is not Buffy. Buffy doesn't say things like this, at all, ever. Not even to Angel. Contrast this with the cookie dough speech and the subtlety of the "Yeah, sometimes I think about it" in "Chosen." I think Joss picked the word "pronounce" purposelly, too: it just sounds so ridiculous (though I do love that it's kind of a wink at Buffy's intentional mispronunciation of everything that has more than three syllables. That's my girl!) Pair it with the "weirdest, bestest..." repeat, and yeah: that's not just Buffy. She is definitely being influenced by something.

She also says, "But you have my heart, so what I can I do?" Those are not words of free will speaking there. I think that's very significant.

+ Whatever this "higher power" is that's orchestrating all of this, it's weirdly obsessed with sex. First there's the space-frakkin'. Then there's the dog noticing his balls (which, okay, was pretty funny, if not nearly as funny as "Squirrel!" from Up!) and the lady offering to take Angel back to her place to thank him. I'm probably reading waaaaaay too much into this, but the other animal that the power uses to address Angel is a bird, which makes me think birds and bees. Okay, that last one is stretching it, but I wonder if the rest is significant.

+ Knocking over Big Ben: yes, Spike: funny. If this was real, it wouldn't be, but as a shout-out to him announcing his arrival by knocking down the "Welcome to Sunnydale" sign? Hilarious. Also, I like the contrast between that being intentional for him and it being an accident that Angel knocks down the Hollywood "O." Actually, not even an accident: the power flings him towards it--he doesn't have a choice. Spike does. Which leads me to...

+ I absolutely love that Spike is going out, finding info for himself, putting the pieces together, asking around, calling in favors and that he figures out what's going on for himself. It proves that A) he's a pretty smart guy, no matter what Angel says, and B) he's still the captain of Team Free Will. Where Angel is prompted, prodded by any power that comes along and claims to be good, Spike makes choices, hurls himself into the battle that he wasn't necessarily invited to, and makes his own story. I always think of Whistler telling Buffy that no one ever saw her coming. No one ever saw Spike coming, either. And that is why I love him. Also, I find the white socks strangely endearing.

+ Angel getting his suit made by the little tailor guy made me laugh. I wonder what he's going to think of it when he's not under the influence anymore? He's always been metro; I think he'll be appalled.

+ As Spike's ushering everyone onto the ship (once again, Buffy may say she doesn't trust him, but she trusts him enough to take care of the people she cares about--which includes Dawn. I would die of happiness if we got some Spike/Dawn interaction, even though I know we won't), they're giving him sideways glances. This could mean a couple of things: A) they still haven't taken his sacrifice in "Chosen" seriously or B) they've seen Buffy and Angel acting ridiculous and destroying the world, and here's Buffy's other big love, and they're wondering if he'll be affected as well. Personally, I think it's the later. At this point, soulful vamps who love Buffy aren't exactly to be trusted and last they heard (I think) Spike was working with Angel. It makes sense to me.

+ The bug thing is weird, and so is the steampunk ship, but! I do like the "glorious leader," "your majesty" thing. Someone please write me fic about Spike showing up on some bug world and them crowning him their king. Because that would be glorious. Even if it has ooky colonial overtones.

+ Dawn/Xander is cute. I still say that if you're watching S7, you can see the foundation for that pairing being laid. It makes sense to me. Even if I kind of think Dawn can do better.

+ Amy/Warren? WTF? Giles is throwing up? Silliness. I don't really need that, Joss.

+ Further proof that Buffy isn't herself: sending Angel to protect Slayers. AFTER HE'S BEEN THREATENING/KILLING THEM ALL ALONG. Yeah. Right.

+ "I got more powerful, not remotely mature." HAHAHA! Oh, Angel! True words were never spoken! What are you, twelve?

+ Frog!Angel! Hilarity! Also, "the man-bitch formerly known as Angel"! Oh, Faith. I like you so much now. I wish you and Buffy were BFFs. You totally are in my head!canon.

+ YET AGAIN Buffy makes Angel leave and has Spike beside her as she saves the world. Seriously, people, this is ship fodder right here: Buffy and Angel are face-to-face, waxing poetical about their love, but Buffy and Spike are side-by-side, facing what's coming, getting down to business, saving the world. And isn't that what we love about them? Also: SNARK! We get snark, they get schmoop. And it's not even real schmoop! We win. The end. /silliness

+ Now to the part you've all been waiting for. The Buffy/Spike interaction. I actually...kind of love it. It's actually very much how I wrote them being reunited in Basiare. No tears and sweetness and weeping. In that, I have both of them not being able to keep from hurting each other because they've always been able to make each other so raw. It's actually uglier than this interaction, because that was outright fighting.

This, however, is snark. Buffy storms up to him, all business, interrupting him. She does things in order, not letting him say anything. Favorite bit:

Buffy: Two, what do you know and how can you help? No jokes, no snark, no British slang that just means something dirty.
Spike: One, under all that demon viscera, you still reek of him, and that's not a treat for me. But it can't be Buffy if she doesn't bonk the bad guy, right?
Buffy: Snark!
Spike: Comes with the sizable package. Two: you can under no circumstances trust him.
Buffy: Can everybody just agree not to trust anybody and you get to the frikkin point?

Seriously, that is so them that it kind of makes me flail. SNARK! Greatest thing ever!

And Spike is the one who gets through to her, who makes her realize what's going on, who makes her cry. How perfect is that? He's the one who tells her the truth and brings her back to reality.

So, no, this isn't probably what a lot of y'all wanted, and I get that. But think of how many post-"NFA" reunion scenes you've read. How many of them have her punching him in the nose? So many. Think of this as the initial punch. They're right in the middle of trying to save the world (TOGETHER!). They don't have time for anything but their banter, and boy do they ever. They don't have time to hash out the whole "Did you really love me?" thing. There isn't time. Instead, they interact just exactly as they always have, words flying, keeping up with each other, telling each other the truth.

And yeah, I think we might get something a bit softer and more personal later, especially if Emmie and I are right and Joss is setting this up so that Spike has to "betray" Buffy in order to save the day.

So I want to encourage y'all again. I really do think there's loads of hope here. No, I don't think Buffy will end up with Spike at the end of the season. I think she'll be alone, but hopefully healed (have y'all read Maggie's post yet? It's brilliant, and it's what I want Joss to be doing with this season). However, I think the way the plot is unfolding, it'll be clear (if you're willing to see it) that her relationship with Spike is a whole hell of a lot more healthy than the one with Angel. So while she may not technically be with either one of them, there's all kinds of hope for our ship. We aren't going to "win," but they aren't, either. We'll all be still standing at the end, and could we really expect more than that?

+ [eta] The Master! How could I forget? I don't actually have any thoughts on this, but I like moscow_watcher's. So go read hers!

Wow! That got long! And most of it is positive! Did you ever, ever, ever think you'd see the day where I wrote a S8 response post that was both long and positive? Really?

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

THIS IS WHAT PURE JOY FEELS LIKE



Wasn't Faith amazing? And Willow turning him into a frog? And Spike was so SPIKE! And the Spuffy was so SPUFFY.

The Buffy/Spike interaction. I actually...kind of love it. It's actually very much how I wrote them being reunited in Basiare. No tears and sweetness and weeping. In that, I have both of them not being able to keep from hurting each other because they've always been able to make each other so raw. It's actually uglier than this interaction, because that was outright fighting.

OMG you're right! And look how many people loved Basiare? (Though imagine if you'd ended in a long break right after Buffy is cruel to him, yikes!) You totally got there before Joss did, you clever lady! I'm abusing exclamation points here but I'm happy, so !

Seriously, that is so them that it kind of makes me flail. SNARK! Greatest thing ever!

YES

How many of them have her punching him in the nose? So many. Think of this as the initial punch.

You PWN with this comparison. Yes, it's the initial punch. YESYESYES.


They're right in the middle of trying to save the world (TOGETHER!). They don't have time for anything but their banter, and boy do they ever. They don't have time to hash out the whole "Did you really love me?" thing. There isn't time. Instead, they interact just exactly as they always have, words flying, keeping up with each other, telling each other the truth.

*xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

YAY! I'm so glad I could bring you joy! And seriously, it feels really good to be so relaxed about the comics right now!

MOAR FAITH. I think I'm gonna go back and at least read the Faith-centric issues because I'm liking her now. Though I'm still mad that Joss doesn't let them be BFFs. Oh, well. I have hope for S9 now.

(Though imagine if you'd ended in a long break right after Buffy is cruel to him, yikes!)

Exactly. And again, I totally understand where people are coming from. It is an awful place to end it, which is why I struggle with the entire season, to be quite honest. I think that a lot of the problems people are having would be alleviated if it were coming out once a week like the show. It's this dragging it out over years that makes it so difficult for the audience. I really don't think Joss took that into account.

Is it possible to use too many exclamation points in this journal? Have you met me?

You PWN with this comparison. Yes, it's the initial punch. YESYESYES.

I really like this comparison, too! I do think this is the punch moment.

*xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo* back attcha!

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Yay!!! Love this review. Fun and bouncy and happy!

Some how "Glorious leader to bug one" has been on my mind all morning. I love that. I don't know why.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Ha! I'm glad you enjoyed it! I was just going to write a comment to Emmie about how I felt, but it ended up getting long and I thought it would be interesting for people to see how someone reacted to this issue who hasn't been reading all along and hasn't been analyzing everything from the beginning.

And if Joss is really doing what you think he's doing? This is gonna be epic!

I love that Spike embraces the "glorious leader" thing. He so would. And he's got a team that he's really interacting with, even if they are bugs.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Well said, and probably spot-on. I also don't think she's going to end up with Spike (or Angel - thank God), but I hope she's going to end up having saved the world, emotionally whole, and with her options open.

Re: I think Joss picked the word "pronounce" purposelly, too: it just sounds so ridiculous (though I do love that it's kind of a wink at Buffy's... + YET AGAIN Buffy makes Angel leave and has Spike beside her as she saves the world. Seriously, people, this is ship fodder right here: Buffy and Angel are face-to-face, waxing poetical about their love, but Buffy and Spike are side-by-side, facing what's coming, getting down to business, saving the world. And isn't that what we love about them? Also: SNARK! We get snark, they get schmoop. And it's not even real schmoop! We win. The end. /silliness
WORD!

Long comment, but just had to nod my head in some visible way. :)

ETA - also nods to Faith (her arc was pretty good. you should read it)and Willow (Frog - hee!)

"initial punch" OMG, yes! Who hasn't written a reunion scene that begins with a punch to his nose or jaw? No time for that now - there's a world to save. But there will be a "conversation" later, make no mistake about it - even if I have to write it myself...

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I hope she's going to end up having saved the world, emotionally whole, and with her options open.

That's what I want for her. That's all I ever wanted for her. And that leaves us tons and tons of room for us to write fic where she runs into him three weeks, two months, five years, whatever later.

Long comment, but just had to nod my head in some visible way. :) Glad you did!

"initial punch" OMG, yes! Who hasn't written a reunion scene that begins with a punch to his nose or jaw? No time for that now - there's a world to save. But there will be a "conversation" later, make no mistake about it - even if I have to write it myself...

Oh, yes! I'm actually really looking forward to the comics being done because I think it'll prompt fic of that sort. That would be good. :D

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

I have no comments on #36 specifically because I don't read the comics and they are not canon to me because changing mediums disrupts the text.

+ Dawn/Xander is cute. I still say that if you're watching S7, you can see the foundation for that pairing being laid. It makes sense to me. Even if I kind of think Dawn can do better.

This pairing is repellent to me. He was her babysitter when she was fourteen and he was an adult. He has been carrying a torch for her sister for almost a decade and has treated every woman in his life as a thankless Buffy substitute. Moving on to her sister is a natural progression of this disgusting pattern, and I find it deeply, deeply gross.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't treat them as canon. I'll probably go on ignoring them as I continue to write fic.

Hmmm....I can see why you say that. But when she was fourteen, he was, 19? Five years isn't a big deal to me. If it's the babysitting in particular that bothers you, I actually blame that on Joss being stupid and not knowing how to write a fourteen-year-old. I was babysitting other kids at 14. 14-year-olds don't need babysitters. S5!Dawn was written really horribly. Way, way, way too young for the age she actually was. But I can understand that initial dynamic throwing you off later.

I am not a Xander fan. I always thought he was a Nice Guy TM, and I was grossed out by him. However! In S7 I felt like he grew up enough that I could finally like him, and from what I can tell in S8, he's completely moved on from his Buffy-crush. Plus, Buffy comes to him and tells him she wants to be with him, and he says, "No, thanks. I'm with Dawn now." Which to me indicates that he isn't using Dawn as a Buffy!replacement (which would gross me out and infuriate me and probably make me want to hunt down Joss and kill him) but that he really wants to be with her. If it was still all about Buffy, he'd drop Dawn and be with B right now.

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

He was twenty. I actually think S5 Dawn is written very well; she feels very fourteen to me. I have a sister who's sixteen, and Dawn's arc has always felt very correct to me in terms of how she develops and matures.

Six years is a significant distance, and I am not even really comfortable with the idea of 19 year-old Dawn and 25 year-old Xander, frankly. I say this as a 22 year-old. At 19 I was in no way equipped to have an egalitarian relationship with a 25 year old.

The other thing that is gross to me about it is that when Xander finds out Dawn is the Key, all he wants to talk about (to Giles of all people) is that a "powerful being" has a crush on him, ignoring the fact that she is -fourteen-. The idea that he got off to that and then sat around waiting until she was legal so he could fuck her is really gross to me.

I am not a Xander fan. I always thought he was a Nice Guy TM, and I was grossed out by him.
Yeah I view him this way all the way up through "Chosen".

From what I can tell in S8, he's completely moved on from his Buffy-crush.
Yeah and to me this is just a big failure of characterization. Like, the idea that Buffy would ever want to be with Xander in the first place is insane, but the idea that Xander would turn her down is just crazypants to me. It reads to me like Joss wanted Buffy to finally cave to Xander (his admitted author proxy) and for Xander to shut her down. It reads as petty vengeance against all the pretty girls who ever shut Whedon down. And then he gets the Summers sister consolation prize. Idk I hate hate hate it.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

See, she doesn't feel 14 to me at all. I'm not saying I was ridiculously mature at 14, but both my little sister and I were left alone by our parents and were babysitting toddlers by that age. We did not have babysitters, as she has even before they know about Glory. She reads much more as an 11 or 12-year-old to me during that season. 14 is freshman year of high school, and while higher schoolers are immature, they aren't that immature. However, in the last two seasons, she worked for me.

vAt 19 I was in no way equipped to have an egalitarian relationship with a 25 year old. In general, I don't think it's usually a good idea, but in this case it doesn't bother me: she's matured a ton, they've known each other for a while, and Xander's always been immature for his age. I actually do think they're on the same level and have similar levels of life experience here.

Your interpretations of everything certainly are gross, and if that's the way you're looking at it, I 100% understand your feelings.

I don't know, though: I think Anya's death could have been his wake-up call, especially since I think he grew up a lot in S7.

I think Buffy wanting Xander is supposed to be insane. Everyone I know read that as proof that Buffy's so desperate for connection (a huge theme in S8) that she'd even go for Xander, who she's never had anything but sisterly feelings towards. I don't think we're supposed to believe she really wants to be with him.

It reads to me like Joss wanted Buffy to finally cave to Xander (his admitted author proxy) and for Xander to shut her down. It reads as petty vengeance against all the pretty girls who ever shut Whedon down. And then he gets the Summers sister consolation prize. Idk I hate hate hate it.

That does kind of make me want to hurl, and again, if you read it that way, yeah, it makes sense that it would piss you off.

And again--I think she can do better. I often like to ship her with Connor, but I think a nice OC who's really awesome would be good for her. I'd like to see her take a while off from the world of Slayers, go to college and be normal for a while, and then maybe come back and be a Watcher. She'd be a good one.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I often like to ship her with Connor, but I think a nice OC who's really awesome would be good for her.

Or a dark ~immortal type who is willing to fight for her and become more despite such low expectations.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hahaha! Someone reviewed that the other day and was like, "Sequel!" And I was all, "Uhhhhh..." I wish I had the time/energy to write it.


What are your feelings on Dawn/Xander? You're the one who's actually watched it unfold.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I mostly think it's cute now. I don't want him with Buffy, really, but I think he and Dawn are good for each other.

Here's the thing: Dawn is the aggressor in the relationship so I think it's cool. And she's so clearly her own woman now that any age-factor squick doesn't bug me.

I think they're cute together. They're always being adorable in the background with one another. Like in Retreat when they were walking across a river and Xander tripped on stones and Dawn helped him. And then here where Dawn is freaking out and Xander's comforting her.

I can see how thinking about it is squicksome, but I find the reality cute and so ~not gross. Dawn is a grown woman and she wants Xander. She should have ~everything~ she wants.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I was thinking it was probably along those lines, so it doesn't bother me, either.

She should have ~everything~ she wants.

Agreed. It doesn't matter who you are--Dawn Summers is cooler than you!

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

See, she doesn't feel 14 to me at all. I'm not saying I was ridiculously mature at 14, but both my little sister and I were left alone by our parents and were babysitting toddlers by that age. We did not have babysitters, as she has even before they know about Glory.
I have always chalked this up to Buffy and Joyce instinctively feeling a need to protect Dawn from something, even if they don't know what it is. Joyce all but implies this after her brain tumor reveals Dawn's nature.

She reads much more as an 11 or 12-year-old to me during that season. 14 is freshman year of high school, and while higher schoolers are immature, they aren't that immature.
See, I think that Dawn's monologue in "Tough Love" (about not knowing if she can be good) and actions in "The Gift" (being absolutely ready to jump the moment the portal opens) speak of a maturity that I think fits a 14 year old. She's a bit childish early in the season because Buffy and Joyce infantilize her all the time.

In general, I don't think it's usually a good idea, but in this case it doesn't bother me: she's matured a ton, they've known each other for a while, and Xander's always been immature for his age. I actually do think they're on the same level and have similar levels of life experience here.
Yeah I mean, of all the 19 year olds and 25 year olds in the world they are probably the two most on the same wavelength despite that age gap. I just think Dawn should be with someone her own age until she has been through the crucible that is late adolescence, personally.

I don't know, though: I think Anya's death could have been his wake-up call, especially since I think he grew up a lot in S7.
I'd buy this more if he ever, ever talked about Anya in the comics. I only read the first two arcs, so maybe he has been more lately? But it's like she never existed, and I find his cracking jokes soon after her death in "Chosen" kind of glib and unpleasant, even if there wasn't much else they could do if they wanted to end on a happy note.

I'd like to see her take a while off from the world of Slayers, go to college and be normal for a while, and then maybe come back and be a Watcher. She'd be a good one.
This is my dream for Dawn, yes. Though honestly I always wished she'd been the one to wear the amulet in "Chosen", but on some level this relates to my many Problems With Spike's Arc.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

See, I think that Dawn's monologue in "Tough Love" (about not knowing if she can be good) and actions in "The Gift" (being absolutely ready to jump the moment the portal opens) speak of a maturity that I think fits a 14 year old.

I would agree with that. I spoke in terms that were too sweeping. By the end of the season, he's writing her much better, imo.

I just think Dawn should be with someone her own age until she has been through the crucible that is late adolescence, personally.

Oh, if I were deciding how things would work with her? Yeah, I'd have her with someone else or on her own. I just don't particularly see the execution of this as gross to me personally.

and I find his cracking jokes soon after her death in "Chosen" kind of glib and unpleasant, even if there wasn't much else they could do if they wanted to end on a happy note.

Yeah, it's always sort of bugged me that Joss is like, "Uh, the Core Four and Dawn all have to be alive in order to have a happy ending...so let's kill of Spike and Anya, because who cares!" I mean, I like Spike's ending (we would probably disagree about your Problems with Spike's Arc, as I love it), but the idea that they aren't necessary to a happy ending but the others are? It's comparing their worth that way that makes me stabby. So I hate the joking, too.

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

I actually really like Anya's death because I think it is the moment at which she finally becomes truly human, and therefore it is on some level what she wanted and the logical endpoint of her journey. Also, Emma Caulfield asked to be killed off, so I don't blame Joss for that one specifically.

With Spike I just take issue with giving him a soul, which I view as a cop-out after three years of really interesting natural progression. Suddenly he's a different person entirely, on some level, and I think that does his character development a disservice.

Spike's magical amulet time is annoying to me mostly because on some level he is played as the great hero of "Chosen" which is one of many things that severely undercut the supposed 'feminist' message of that episode. (The other major issue is the way Willow -- a rapist -- mystically violating thousands of girls around the world is played as a feminist act, but that's a whole nother conversation.)

Dawn was supposed to jump and save the world in "The Gift". On some level she knows that. Buffy did it for her, and so Dawn has been kind of left without a purpose; she's a Key without a lock. I think that having her take the amulet would have been a good way to restore that agency to her, while also letting a woman be the main heroic agent of the episode. Dawn's nature at the Key could mean that it wouldn't have necessarily killed her, anyway.

I just think Spike's arc would have been more redemptive if he had gone out fighting like Anya instead of bursting into magical gouts of soul-flame. Because Spike's arc, imo, was never about his soul. S7: problems I have.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I don't necessarily have a problem with her dying (and I love Anya); I have a problem with the implication that she's so disposable that if she dies it's still a happy ending but if Xander does, it's not. That's what makes me mad.

Well, you're a redemptionista, then! :D Seriously, there are tons of people out there who agree with you about the soul. But I'm fine with it because of the worldbuilding of the show (which was always wonky, admittedly). The whole "You absolutely cannot be good without a soul" thing that we got hammered into our heads. Joss was never, ever going to write Spike as good without a soul. That wasn't going to happen. And since I wanted him to continue to grow, the soul was the next logical step. He'd gotten as close as he could to being good, now he needed to take the final step.

Aha! I get what you saying about Spike saving the day and the feminist message! I can agree with you there! And I definitely agree about Willow--I see absolutely no textual evidence that she ever recognized that what she did to Tara was rape, and that's one of the reasons I can never like her again. I hadn't liked her for a while, but that just makes me furious at her and at Joss. FAIL.


Dawn was supposed to jump and save the world in "The Gift". On some level she knows that. Buffy did it for her, and so Dawn has been kind of left without a purpose; she's a Key without a lock. I think that having her take the amulet would have been a good way to restore that agency to her, while also letting a woman be the main heroic agent of the episode. Dawn's nature at the Key could mean that it wouldn't have necessarily killed her, anyway.

I love this idea! That would have been awesome; I agree!

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

Joss was never, ever going to write Spike as good without a soul.
Yeah and this simplified morality is something that has always wigged me out about BtVS in particular. I mean, Anya has a soul (according to D'Hoffryn in "Selfless"), but she was a way more prolific murderer than Angelus, Darla -or- evil-Spike. So really, what is it about a human soul that supposedly generates conscience? Why are demons like Clem good? Are they 'near-human' and have souls? Really it's just a mess.

This is in part why I have always preferred the way things are set up on AtS, wherein Angel's soul is presented as the thing that makes him feel guilt and compassion as opposed to a thing that makes him a ~good person~. Naturally, this is the reading of it that Joss had less to do with. (God bless Tim Minear.)

I am just all about Dawn, really. By S7 she and Anya are the only characters left that I honestly respect, and even Anya loses me in places. So giving Dawn more agency in saving the world would have been great, and would have honestly felt more natural to me than Spike the Christ.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hey--I agree with you that it's bad worldbuilding and that it would have been way more interesting had he done otherwise. But he had no idea that there would be any exceptions to his rule other than Angel when he first started writing S1, so by the time he gets to Spike and Clem and others (and I've never seen Clem as "good," only as "harmless"--he eats kittens! ;p ), he's already laid down these rules that he can't violate. It's writing himself into a corner, sure, but he clearly didn't he'd be writing for five or six or seven seasons.

You think Anya had a soul while she was a vengeance demon? I need to rewatch that one, then! I always thought she had one as a human, then lost it, then regained it when she became human again, but I could easily be missing something.

Honestly, I don't think that the two readings are that far apart. Having a soul doesn't make you good or ensure that you will be (see: Warren, Angel in AtS S2, etc.), but it gives you the capacity to be good (by giving you guilt, compassion, a conscience, etc.) that you can't have outside of it--not, like Clem, just "not bad" but actively good if you choose to be--and gives you the ability to be selfless, which is the key component for love.

I adore Dawn, and I do love the idea of letting her be the world-saver.

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

Clem is altruistic. He honestly wants to help Buffy and Dawn even when it doesn't involve any benefit to himself. My issue with the "no soul = altruism impossible" thing is that vamp-Spike displays altruism at times.

Like I agree with Tara's indirect assessment in "Crush" when she describes Quasimodo: until Buffy dies pretty much everything Spike does that is 'good' is centered around getting into her good graces rather than actual altruism. But once she's dead, his behavior no longer makes sense in that context. It's legitimate altruism that compels him to protect Dawn, because what does he stand to gain from that? In fact, you could honestly argue this goes all the way back to "Forever", when he leaves flowers for Joyce without a card.

The idea that "soul = all capacity for good" is laid down in S1 during a time when the show has very black and white morality. It's also laid down by Giles, who is toeing the Watchers' Council party line at that point. There's no reason it couldn't have been complicated later, much like everything else the Watchers' Council believed about the good fight.

D'Hoffryn explicitly says that the sacrifice required is 'the life and soul of a vengeance demon' when he slays Halfrek, so clearly the vengeance demons have souls in general if Halfrek has one. And if Anya didn't have a soul while she was a demon, why would she feel bad about slaughtering frat boys?

Now, Clem and Lorne and characters like them I tend to assume are just 'closer' to humanity than other demons and do in fact have souls, because otherwise it doesn't make sense that Jasmine could control Lorne and not soulless vampires -- clearly her power is somehow dependent on souls.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't define it as altruism--demons are clearly capable of that. I define it as actually caring about "good"--not just about those you care about, but about good as an ultimate goal--and the capacity to selflessly and self-sacrificially love. Which I don't see any evidence of in Clem.

Basically I think what this conversation has convinced me of is that the worldbuilding really IS as sloppy as I've always said it is and the soul thing is very inconsistent. Still, I think Joss was never gonna have Spike attain goodness without the soul, so I'm okay with it. I do think that someone who is better at continuity and willing to take more chances (like, say, you! Or me!) could have balanced all of this a whole lot better. It is disappointing, isn't it?

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

Yeah all I am trying to say is that it's super messy and I think Joss's insistence on human souls as necessary for benevolent action is weird. I think that Spike 'attaining goodness' is something of a fallacious idea in of itself, but I ascribe to the AtS model of redemption as a constant process rather than something you ever actually achieve, so, yeah. Disappointing is a good word.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Amy/Warren? WTF? Giles is throwing up? Silliness. I don't really need that, Joss.

That's the general, I think, not Giles. Amy, Warren and The General (all inexplicably healthy) are in lockup.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's right. But it's an understandable mix-up as the General is fairly nondescript looking, doesn't even have a name and is incredibly unimportant. I still don't understand why General Voll is gone--at least he had a personality.


eta: SOMEONE PLEASE TAKE NOTE I'M STILL CAPABLE OF CRITIQUING THE COMICS. I HAVEN'T LOST ALL MY SENSES, OKAY?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA! I AM GLAD. I like sensible!Emmie!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I don't know who the General is, but I was confused by the shift from Giles in one panel to what looked like Giles who had taken his glasses off and was puking. Guess I missed something. Thanks!

[pamsblau.livejournal.com]

Penny, i love you too!

Seriously, how many awesome people can you find here?
I love that you love the issue because i love it too. Wow, stupid sentence indeed.lol

Anyways:

-you're right. Too many sex. Gosh, that Joss is such a pervert! He's all sex, sex and sex. Seriously, get a life, Joss!

- Although i love both Bangel and Spuffy, i have to admit i was really disappointed with what was done to Buffy/Angel. A romantic and interesting story has been turned into a fest of cheesy lines, fake kisses and cheap porn. It stings.

-I love the bugs and yes!Spike's so much in character!

-Spike/Buffy shared such a great moment in this issue. The best, most unexpected and yet expected reunion. They're real with each other. He brings the tears in her eyes. How cool is that? That's why i love them!
Something i've read on Gabby's lj in the comments and what seriously made me think again what both Bangel and Spuffy represent.
Bangel means forever. And the opposite of forever isn't sometimes. It's never. With Bangel it's forever or never. With Spuffy it's:

Spike:Do you even like me?
Buffy:Sometimes.

Buffy tries so hard to close her heart for Spike. Because she doesn't want sometimes, that's why she tries so hard to change sometimes to never.

Buffy:I would never touch you, Spike, never kiss you.Never ever.

Buffy: I could never trust you enough for it to be love.

but she fails every time. That's what makes this ship so real.

I'm really excited about the next issue!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! I'm so glad!

I can't imagine how you would not be upset if you like Bangel. I really don't like it, so it doesn't bother me, but if you have any affection for it at all, of course you're upset. I'm sorry about that.

Yeah, I absolutely loved the forever/never/sometimes discussion over there! Brilliant, right?

I'm definitely looking forward to the next one as well. We'll see if the awesome continues!

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I like the contrast between that being intentional for him and it being an accident that Angel knocks down the Hollywood "O."

Wow, I haven't thought about this contrast.

Also, I find the white socks strangely endearing.

Hee! Yay Team White Socks!

I wish you and Buffy were BFFs. You totally are in my head!canon.

Can I live in your head, please?

And - thank you for pimping :)

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Spike in white socks is the best thing ever!

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

these comics make my head hurt. cordelia and i are annoyed at many of these events.

[elisi]

Just very quickly...

But think of how many post-"NFA" reunion scenes you've read. How many of them have her punching him in the nose? So many.
This made me laugh. Our wonderful, wonderful 'ship... (And this is why I think Brian Lynch gets them. Did you see the preview? The illustration to But then. I fell in love with someone new is just perfection! ;)

They don't have time to hash out the whole "Did you really love me?" thing. There isn't time.
Let's go be heroes indeed.

I'm... torn. Don't get me wrong I can see the Spuffiness, but partly I don't care and partly I'm just annoyed for reasons I don't have time to go into right now. So - look my icon! *g*

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

That *is* a fabulous icon -- I kept forgetting to say!

[elisi]

Made by zanthinegirl if anyone wants to snag! :)

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that panel from Lynch is best. *g*

[hazyflights.livejournal.com]

Iiii wish I was into Buffy so I could say something of worth here, but I will settle for HI LAUREN HI.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

First of all, there is no way we're supposed to be taking Buffy's interactions with Angel seriously. No. Way. The art is too over-the-top for me to even begin to. Buffy's face? Seriously? She never looks like that, all googly-eyed.

Word. This is me, gagging on bile.

Also: SNARK! We get snark, they get schmoop. And it's not even real schmoop! We win. The end. /silliness

YESSSS.

I always think of Whistler telling Buffy that no one ever saw her coming. No one ever saw Spike coming, either. And that is why I love him. Also, I find the white socks strangely endearing.

You know, the best thing to come out of all this is me being reminded HOW MUCH I LOVE MY BOY. Which I do. SFM.

"I got more powerful, not remotely mature." HAHAHA! Oh, Angel! True words were never spoken! What are you, twelve?

Not so much love in this department. *sprays insecticide* Please get back to the Angelfood I actually do love. And have some bromance times with Spike. KTHXBAI.

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

YAY!

YAY LAUREN!!

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

YOU SO DESERVE A GIFSPAM FOR THIS ONE.

A HAPPY GIFSPAM FOR A SEASON 8 REVIEW? I'M IN TOTAL SHOCKY CAPSLOCK MODE RIGHT NOW!!! THE BOTH OF US BEING POSITIVE? ARE PIGS FLYING? (I almost wrote "flaying", and Warren is flying in the steampunk spaceship of DOOM, so . . . um . . . yes, maybe? Warren is a pig, after all . . .)

ON TO THE HAPPY GIFSPAM!!

You bring me the joy of Eleven dancing at Amy and Rory's Wedding!
a href="http://s738.photobucket.com/albums/xx27/lexiingram/?action=view¤t=50.gif" target="_blank">

And even Caroline is happy you're positive about season 8!


I'd totally hug you right now!


And even though you don't watch Lost, you deserve a thumbs up!


You deserve some sexy Damon dancing!


Even Cordy's happy!


And Spike's so happy, he's swinging in the sunshine!


All in all, you deserve a round of applause!


I'd totally have a more coherent response if I wasn't still totally exhausted from the wedding, but you deserved some happy NOW!

[lokifan]

I love this post because everything I've read is Spuffy/Bangel stuff. And I love Faith, and Giles, and Dawn, and I want to know about Andrew and Willow and Xander. So even a bit about Faith makes me really happy!

[seapealsh.livejournal.com]

I think this issue was very pro-Spike. He came off as intelligent and business-like. Also snarky, which is always appreciated. Compare that to how Angel is portrayed. We may not get Spuffy, but we get a Spike who is worthy of respect and trust. I love it.

Also, white socks and my favorite part: Spike seeing Twilight on TV and saying "ooh, that'd be Angel, then". Our Spike is soooo perceptive!

[mollivanders.livejournal.com]

I skipped most of this to avoid spoilers but the excerpt you pulled with the bestest/weirdest?

...I don't even know what. I just. No. No. And this is why I think I'll pass on the comics :) Contrast that with the cookie dough speech indeed.