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A link
I know a lot of you keep up with metafandom, so possibly you've all already read this long ago, but I just now stumbled upon it and I MUST SHARE.
Fiction, gender, women's pain, and MAN PAIN
If the Buffyverse, BSG, or gender stuff is relevant to your interests (and I know at least a few of you who are interested in ALL OF THE ABOVE), go and read this. It talks about our different reactions to men and women's pain and also explains why I can't stand Wesley Wyndham-Pryce and why I love Buffy Summers, among other things. Also there is Kara love and Adama hate, and even though (as you probably know), I'm pretty apathetic when it comes to Kara, I know a lot of you aren't and love her for very good reasons. So go forth and read!
Fiction, gender, women's pain, and MAN PAIN
If the Buffyverse, BSG, or gender stuff is relevant to your interests (and I know at least a few of you who are interested in ALL OF THE ABOVE), go and read this. It talks about our different reactions to men and women's pain and also explains why I can't stand Wesley Wyndham-Pryce and why I love Buffy Summers, among other things. Also there is Kara love and Adama hate, and even though (as you probably know), I'm pretty apathetic when it comes to Kara, I know a lot of you aren't and love her for very good reasons. So go forth and read!
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WHEN I READ SHIT LIKE THIS IT'S LIKE SEEING THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN AND I'M LIKE FFFFFUUUU.
BECAUSE I LIKE WESLEY. I DO. UNTIL S5. I THOUGHT HIS MAINPAIN IN S3 WAS DUMB AS ALL FUCK, YOU STUPID TWAT, BUT IT GAVE ME LIIIIILAH.
oh god dammit.
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On the other hand: LILAH. I will put up with all of Wes' daggum issues if it means Lilah is in the world.
Also, while reading this, I realized that Supernatural is THE SHOW ABOUT MAN PAIN.
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I didn't realize this at the time, but one of the things I loved about Life is the way the the male and female leads' backstories both have elements that could have been very Man Pain-y, but the story is very symmetrical in terms of the amount of the amount of wallowing/angst they get to do, and a lot of the plot is about how they learn to work together to cope with said Man Pain.
And is it bad that I agree with all of the points about Man Pain double-standards, but still have a softspot for certain aspects of dark!Wesley?
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I've never watched the show, but I'm fond of Damien Lewis and so I've always meant to. That makes me want to check it out more. Thanks!
Ha! I'll judge you not!
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But I'm easy to please. I love Wes, Buffy AND Kara. Not Adama though. GOOD GOD HIS MAN-PAIN.
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(Spike was allowed to upstage Buffy on her own show? Do...not...agree.... The narrative treated Wesley more sympathetically than Faith in BtVS? Um, no. But then the author also hates season six/seven. And I'm vowing for personal-sanity reasons to stop reading late-series-bashing articles. And the author doesn't like Joss' work on Emma Frost? Must. Not. Read. Yeah, I have issues; I wrote a whole post while you were out about how I get too upset reading critiques of things I like and have to cut it out. The downside of course is that it is a way for me to reduce cognitive dissonace of liking things that are problematic ethically. Um, uh-oh?)
That said, the central premise is, I think, valid. Adama is indeed a good example--he has lost the least of basically anyone alive as of the end-of-the-world. It does happen for women on BSG. Caprica Six's personal pain over not being loved enough by Gaius, and not being loved enough by Tigh, are given a lot of emphasis, while she was literally personally responsible for the deaths of billions and doesn't entirely own up to that.
For the most part, I am kind of okay with this though, which shows what kind of a weird watcher I am. The narrative focuses on what it will focus on, and for the most part I'm okay with being asked to sympathize with people who don't get how much damage they do. Why exactly I think that the show does expect us to think Adama's a great guy when he isn't, and this is a big problem, but doesn't really expect us to think Caprica is redeemed, even though she is also presented sympathetically, is hard to articulate. Similarly, I just don't buy that Wesley is given a get-out-of-jail-free card by the narrative, or that his pain is completely unjustified, though I can understand why people feel that way.
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While i do not agree entirely with the original post (see local_max's post) there is a lot of thruth in there.
Our cultural consent is that men are more important than women, hence their suffering is way more important than women's suffering. And, yes, this is bad in too many ways and layers to describe in such short space (eg. the whole "2-sexes-concept" is bad to begin with and goes into criminal area with putting one of the sexes above the other).
I think what the original author describes is part of my dislike for AtS, which is mysogynistic on nearly every level (while i don't get the hatred towards Spike - but then, we like and dislike things sometimes on purely irrational standards).
I'm glad that i found a corner of the Buffy fandom which is usually well educated and able to differentiate (apart from my dislike of AtS :-P ), i'm glad that people around here seem to focus on Buffy and loving her.
Uh, and, of course, loving YOU! :)
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The one I'm really scratching my head over is the Crichton reference because he sacrificed his planet when exactly? I honestly cannot make heads or tails of that one and I'm trying. I actually left a question on her essay because, I'm not sure what she's referring to. He destroyed some planets and a dreadnought or two but none of them was Earth and none of the ones he destroyed were to save Earth so I'm just really confused by that example.
I'm also not sure about the focus on a one-off character like Gwen on AtS. I mean, Gwen/Spike aren't exactly equivlent characters. He's was a pretty high profile character in the series from way back and she appeared in, what? Two episodes? And wasn't particularly compelling in either. Now, if we want to talk a female character sacrificed on the altar of Man Pain we can discuss how Cordelia suffered and how that just becomes Angel pain, we can go for volumes about how that happened. God, what AtS did to Cordelia...
(One could throw Fred into the same pile, except that it's probably equally true that Joss was loving the whole Illyria thing so I don't think that Fred was sacrificed solely for Wesley but also because he thought Illyria was cool).
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And the Gwen/Spike comparison is baffling. She was in three episodes. Why exactly it's supposed to be a zero-sum pain-game
And YES to Starbuck and Adama.
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One issue is sexism in fandom. Hell yes it exists. If there is any question about it, roll by Fandom_Wank whenever it's rumored that some woman is going to be cast on Supernatural. Fandom goes berserk and it's both horrifying and astounding. It's definitely a legit issue to talk about sexism in fandom. It exists and it can be ugly.
However, I'm far less certain about the gender assignment of 'man pain' and 'woman pain' when what is being described is protagonist privilege verging on narrative narcissism. What's really being described isn't male or female but a narcissistic protagonist, and it's easy to come up with examples of these in both genders. There's nothing inherently feminine or masculine about ego centrism. Any glance at a reality show on MTV or Bravo will provide a multitude of examples of it – in both genders – in near pathological forms.
If the central question is whether there's sexism in fandom? I can only vigorously nod my head and say that there is. You’re damn straight there is!
If, on the other hand, it's about protagonist privilege taken to extremes, then I don’t feel like dragging gender into it. Both genders are capable of myopic egocentrism, and writers have their preferred pets overdose on protagonist privilege all the time. And I reserve my right to be irritated with narcissistic characters regardless of gender.
And on BSG no one’s pain was allowed to count 1/10th as much Starbuck’s or Adama’s pain. Starbuck could have an affair with Apollo behind her husband's back and Apollo's wife's back and it somehow become all about Starbuck's angst and only Starbuck's angst (pity the pair of cuckholded spouses. Their angst didn't count at all...their deaths didn't either).
Both Adama and Starbuck were given butt loads of protagonist privilege, more than anyone else in a show that was rife with characters exhibiting appalling behaviors and not having to compensate for it. Truly, to top everyone else on that show in that regard was a feat.)
And the Gwen thing is baffling to me. Might as well complain about Dennis the Ghost or the millionaire of Season 1 AtS not being made regulars.
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Fandom sexism really is a big deal. Gabrielleabelle's post was mostly about that and I agreed with her.
But this "man pain" thing...I just disagree with it being associated with "men" at all. I don't think there's anything gendered about the pain that the author describes. Maybe because there are generally more male protagonists than female protagonists, it's more often associated with men.
Both Adama and Starbuck were given butt loads of protagonist privilege, more than anyone else in a show that was rife with characters exhibiting appalling behaviors and not having to compensate for it. Truly, to top everyone else on that show in that regard was a feat.)
Yes. I've wondered at times whether this was deliberate. At TWOP (and I almost never go there), Jacob (one of the few reviewers who I think tries to be even-handed and has interesting, if often very esoteric, things to say) seems to think that the characters' egocnetrism is something we're supposed to see behind--that it's not necessarily that they're bad people but that they are definitely blinded by their power. Jane Espenson's "Dirty Hands," where Adama lines up Tyrol's wife and some others to be shot, seems to want us to go there. And certainly it's 100% deliberate in Baltar's case, which shows that the writers are sensitive to the idea. But there isn't that much other evidence (that I can think of) that the characters' egocentrism is really MEANT to be a big deal.
And that's part of the reason why I can't get behind some stuff--we were supposed to, I guess, cheer when Tyrol strangled Tory (I haven't really been able to come up with another explanation for the way that scene was executed, and the way no one called Tyrol on his peace-destroying rage), but it didn't seem like Tory was all that much worse (if worse at all) than the vast majority of the characters on the show, and less deserving of a chance to explain herself.
As I said before, I do think that some protagonist privilege is okay. A story can genuinely not follow every single character in a story world. The deaths of the people on the Olympic Carrier happening to give Lee angst in 33 doesn't bother me. But the way the entire Lee/Kara/Sam/Dee stuff was done mostly to give Kara angst, and, crucially, that she didn't seem to feel that bad about it (whereas Lee, to his credit, at least *felt really bad*) is a bigger issue. I wonder if this is because the former was a momentary decision, and one unavoidable in war, and the latter was an ongoing thing?
Anyway. Probably part of the reason Baltar is likeable (to me, anyway) is that his narcissism is called out so thoroughly for comedy, whereas most of the other characters' isn't.
And the Gwen thing is baffling to me. Might as well complain about Dennis the Ghost or the millionaire of Season 1 AtS not being made regulars.
Yeah. And why did Willow get so many more scenes than Larry? It's because Willow has her WOMAN PAIN, I know it!
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(Anonymous) 2010-07-15 02:27 pm (UTC)(link)Occasionally I would get that, and that could work except that they kept having people display these attitudes in all aspects of their lives. There were just so many instances where I'd walk away with "Wow. These are really awful people." It at times reached the level that I didn't actually care whether or not the humans survived.
But the way the entire Lee/Kara/Sam/Dee stuff was done mostly to give Kara angst, and, crucially, that she didn't seem to feel that bad about it (whereas Lee, to his credit, at least *felt really bad*) is a bigger issue. I cannot express exactly how much I loathed the Quad of Doom. I hated the storyline. I hated the way it was handled. And it made me want to roll my eyes and grit my teeth at the whole pilot 'love' thing ever after. It made me dislike both Apollo and Starbuck, but, you're right. Apollo eventually seemed to 'get' that they'd been assholes. Starbuck never cared. She seemed to think it was perfectly okay to disregard everyone else, 'cause she had her pain, y'know? Spouses need to just suck it up and, deal, okay. (Then the ending flashback that she and Apollo basically -- nearly -- did the exact same thing to his brother? Put me down as someone who was glad that Apollo and Starbuck weren't given a shippy ending.)
One thought I've returned to on a number of shows with a number of characters in a number of fandoms is that motivation isn't justification. Just because I can understand why a character does something doesn't make that characters actions okay Something can be comprehensible and reprehesible at the exact same time. If you can pull that off and still have likability, you've done a really neat trick. If you can't, then deal with then recognize the fact that not everyone is going to cheer that character on in every situation.
Baltar kind of falls into the same category as True Blood Jason Stackhouse. Both of them do terrible things, but they never seem to realize beforehand that their choice is going to be disastrous and they cannot seem to help themselves. Add in the funny and you can still thing that they're walking catastrophe areas, but you can enjoy watching them from the safe distance of a television set.
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For some reason, I didn't mind the quadrangle of death while watching. I zoomed through S3 on DVD and so never really stopped long enough to get upset. I never really hated anyone while watching the show, to be honest; it's more in thinking about it that certain characters stand out to me and make me angry.
One thought I've returned to on a number of shows with a number of characters in a number of fandoms is that motivation isn't justification. Just because I can understand why a character does something doesn't make that characters actions okay Something can be comprehensible and reprehesible at the exact same time. If you can pull that off and still have likability, you've done a really neat trick. If you can't, then deal with then recognize the fact that not everyone is going to cheer that character on in every situation.
I agree with this to an extent. The "to an extent" is, I think, partly that I tend to empathize with characters more than, perhaps, I should: I can still like characters who are in some respects awful people. When characters don't really own up to badness they're involved in, I do make note of it, and if I think the narrative is explicitly condoning them then I get angry. But if I don't think a character is being privileged as being "right" or "admirable" then I really don't mind. I am full of sympathy for pretty much everyone in season six of BtVS, for example, even though I understand why others aren't. BSG as an example did a good job sometimes of making it clear that these were just people, and that we shouldn't take their position as the right one. Other times, it seemed to side a little too much with the characters. It's a delicate science.
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As shipperx says, Kara has pretty much "man pain" according to their definition as well. And hell, so does Faith, who apparently got shunted in favour of Wesley development in BtVS season three (which is totally untrue), but, um, she also killed a guy and tried to rape/kill Xander. Why are we focusing on Faith's pain in Bad Girls/Consequences and not on Xander's and certainly not on the Finch clan? Because her MAN PAIN is so much more important?
Really the whole argument comes down to a case of protagonist privilege. But not all protagonist privilege is bad. A story can't focus on every single person in the world equally. It's not at all a problem for me that Faith and Buffy get more focus than Alan Finch's family. And as I said earlier, Caprica Six totally got more development than the billions of people she was instrumental in killing. Fundamentally stories have to focus on someone, and it won't always be the victims, especially when sometimes the killers are victims themselves (as, e.g., Faith and Caprica are). I'm willing to concede that this is always problematic, but it seems like the poster's counterexamples (even Buffy, to an extent) of women who don't show "man pain" have man pain in spades as well.
Then again--maybe I'm just getting overexcited about this. Something about the article itself unexpectedly rubbed me the wrong way (whereas gabs' post really didn't), so I'm not quite sure if I'm being fair here. Sorry if this is too much!