lirazel | Thinky thoughts of the Spike-ish kind

That made me laugh. Literally out loud.

It would probably be less painful than trying to figure out what the First was up to in S7. Or WHAT WAS THE DEAL with the penultimate episode of Dollhouse. Just for instance.

You know, I hear the kids are abbreviating that "lol" nowadays. :)

I actually saw a T-shirt in Key West with the bar thing on it. Except with actual drinking establishments, not you and me and Emmie, because that would be weird ~~and awesome~~. I kind of wish I'd bought it, but I was like Buffy in a

deird1 fic with the tacky souvenirs this vacation, so I restrained myself.

*thinks*

*thinks more*

*bursts into tears of frustration*

You had to remind me of that Dollhouse ep, didn't you?

I thought it merited the actual spelling out. Just for emphasis's sake. ;)

That would have been weird and awesome. But the thought of the actual t-shirt makes me giggle.

I'm never going to stop being upset about that. And angry, too. BOYD? SERIOUSLY?

What makes it even worse is that I actually liked "Epitaph Two." Maybe that's just because my ship came out alive and there were more Topher-and-Adelle moments and Mag and Zone were back (I love them more than I should love any characters who were only there for a few episodes) AND ALPHA. But still. I actually liked it. Which makes the "Hollow Men" THAT MUCH WORSE.

It's funny because I watched S7 with my dad and he thought Buffy and Spike had the best chemistr ever, whereas I really didn't see it. I felt like we were watching a different show. It's weird how people can see the same show so differently.

I do have to admit that part of what I didn't like about Buffy and Spike in S7 was the fact that her isolation from her friends was used to bolster the S/B relationship, but what I really wanted from the final season was a focus on the friendships. I felt like the writers didn't do a great job in S7 of balancing the different characters and relationships and that might have made me resent the S/B relationship more than was warranted.

Here is another Spike icon from back when I loved S/B scenes.

It's weird how people can see the same show so differently. It so is.

I totally understand that, though I think one of the major themes of the season (one they actually did a fairly decent job with) was the idea that Buffy by her nature as the Slayer is isolated, which is what makes her actions in "Chosen" in empowering all the other potentials make sense. (Her "hot chicks with superpowers" conversation with Faith comes to mind.) In that sense, it could only be Spike (or, I suppose, Angel, if he came back, but that wouldn't have worked) with whom she feels able to connect: he isn't human. He isn't normal. Plus, he really has seen the worst of her. And their relationship has always been intensely private anyways.

That's not a change-your-mind argument, since I'd guess that you don't like that isolation theme to begin with--and I don't always like the way it plays out ("Empty Places" makes me violently, violently angry. Nothing in the history of television has prompted such a reaction in me). But when I accept that isolation premise, it makes sense to me.

As much as I just supremely don't care about either Xander or Willow, I find Xander by far at his most likable in S7, and the scene where Buffy and Willow are talking about potential love interests in "First Date" makes me flail. Plus, I'm still mad about the way they broke her relationship with Giles, and I definitely would have sacrificed a bit of her interactions with Spike if those two could have gotten to a good place again. Just like I'd have sacrificed a little of Spike's interactions with Buffy to get him and Dawn back together. *sigh*

I felt like the writers didn't do a great job in S7 of balancing the different characters and relationships and that might have made me resent the S/B relationship more than was warranted. I agree completely with the first part. It doesn't make me feel the way you do (obviously), but I think that's a really understandable response.

I have that icon, too!

Your comments were on the money, yo. No worries.

You know, I've seen that 'Spike was too cool' attitude so many times it's starting to not faze me anymore. I generally dismiss the other person as an idiot and carry on with my day :)
And yeah, I'd also identify as a 'Spike'. (Though 'Willow' and 'Buffy' are applicable too.)

And lastly: OMG. The idea that Willow/Tara were the hallmark of a healthy relationship.. SERIOUSLY. WHAT.
Maybe I'm just completely jaded, as a Buffy/Spike shipper - no one of whom can claim to have any 'moral high ground' in fandom (not to mention preconditioned to be very very cynical about the notion of True Love as pretty much a ship requirement) - but this sort of idealisation... is exactly why I don't ship W/T. Or Buffy/Angel. Or whatever other pairings that writer deemed The Love Everyone Should Aspire To. Yeah. Really don't.

Granted, I am a weirdo.

(And for the record: Whoever stated on that thread that Willow's mind-rape of Tara was surely worse than Spike's attempted rape, was 100% correct. Four for you, Glenn Coco.)

YES. Make it so.

Though we need another person or two so we can be depicting good reception...

Whedonesque always makes me feel that I'm representing all of Spike/Spuffy fandom, so there's all this pressure when I comment there. It's weird.

I wish I could embrace your dismiss and carry on policy. *sigh* I kind of love the way all the Spike fans are all, "Nuh-uh! Spike's not cool! He's a looooser!" It cracks me up.

Or whatever other pairings that writer deemed The Love Everyone Should Aspire To. Yeah. Really don't. So much word.

I'm a weirdo, too. We're all weirdos. This journal is my weirdo safe-space!

(Hahaha! That's like my favorite phase EVER. Why is Mean Girls the most quotable movie ever?

Mostly I think that Willow's mind-rape was worse because A) Willow and Tara were in a supposedly "healthy" relationship, B) she succeeded, unlike Spike, and C) SHE NEVER REALLY ACKNOWLEDGED HOW AWFUL IT WAS. Spike got his soul. Willow pouted.)

\o/ That thread got very interesting! I didn't read past the newbie who tripped out about Buffy/Giles. Will have to catch up on it this afternoon...but I basically agree with Emmie, just from skimming the replies.

Hahaha! The newbie cracked me up. I mean, yeah, Buffy/Giles freaks me out, too, because I hate that sort of unequal distribution of power thing, but it's far, far, far from the most squickly thing I've seen in my...ten years of fandom activity.

The whole thread is kind of trippin'. It's all over the place. The last few comments especially are just insane. I'll be anxious to hear what you have to say.

I always expect people there to be more enlightened than they are, and I end up getting rage-y). So yeah, it's nice to agree civilly.

While the population there is probably more than half old timey regulars who've been around the forums and had every argument before, I think there's also a contingent of folks there for whom Whedonesque is pretty much their whole experience of the fandom. Which creates quite a skewed perspective and often leads to some degree of wank, at least from what I've seen. It's an odd place. What tends to emerge as the majority opinion on a subject there rarely matches with my experience of fandom outside the site. Though I've only been around for a short while, relatively speaking, so I may have a skewed view of it myself.

I really do identify with him to an unhealthy degree

Hey, as long as you're self-aware, it can't be that unhealthy! :) What's embarrassing for me isn't that I identify with him, but that it's very easy for anyone who knows both the show and me & my past to draw the correct parallels to S5/S6 Spike. I guess I'm an open book that way.

I think you're certainly right about the demographics.

What tends to emerge as the majority opinion on a subject there rarely matches with my experience of fandom outside the site. Though I've only been around for a short while, relatively speaking, so I may have a skewed view of it myself.

No, that's been my experience exactly. I'm nearly always in the minority, even on things I would expect most people to agree with me about. It's such a surreal kind of place.

It's also that I kind of went into the whole whedonesque thing with the thinking, "Buffy is a feminist show! These people will be feminists as well!" Which...they aren't.

ruuger and I have both gotten into many, many fights about feminism with the less-than-enlightened over there.

Ha! My identification comes more from the emotional landscape than from any particular actions or experiences; I think we have similar personality types. But the idea that there's parallels between him and your past both cracks me up and intrigues me. ;) Yay for Spike-identification!

Me too! I was all, "See this, Joss? See what you did there? Why couldn't you do it in the previous episode, too??"

But that's kind of the story of my Joss fannishness. I point to the awesome and say, "Why can't you be like that all the time?"

Hmmm, how tall is Gabs? She'd have to dye her hair brown, though.

Perhaps we could put an ad on craigslist for brown-haired, fair-skinned women 5'3" or shorter and 5'7" or taller, willing to stand in a line with ~~crazy~~ awesome people?

I'm 5'1" - would I qualify? (Icon is me.)

And now you see, that's the secret. Not the draft you didn't throw out or the thematic symbolism you didn't land. Every Writer... has a death wish.

Even you.

*coffee on keyboard*

You are AWESOME!

We'll have to find a 5'2" and 5'3" to fill in the gap, but I think that should work.

Also, I love that picture: you look so happy. It's fabulous.

Hmm...I'm not sure. I wonder if she'd be willing to sacrifice the blue for a chance at standing in a line with us.

I bet everyone who read that ad would think we're some kind of fetishists. ~~Or maybe we are?~~

Alas, I am 5'6".

I have been brunette before, and I would be willing to do so again as well as, you know, squatting a little to look short But I'm still gonna have to have my blue streaks.

Your blue streaks can complement Emmie's eyes and create some visual interest. *nod*

Mostly I think that Willow's mind-rape was worse because A) Willow and Tara were in a supposedly "healthy" relationship, B) she succeeded, unlike Spike, and C) SHE NEVER REALLY ACKNOWLEDGED HOW AWFUL IT WAS. Spike got his soul. Willow pouted.)

Yes.

And also: Spike's attempted rape was a one-time thing. Willow tried to mind-rape Tara a second time. She would have kept on doing it over and over and over and again if Tara hadn't found out and left. It was NOT a moment of weakness and desperation, it was a HABIT, something that she thought was an acceptable reaction to Tara disagreeing with her. SHE THOUGHT IT WAS OKAY TO MIND-RAPE HER GIRLFRIEND. If Tara had never found out, they might have spent the next 50 years together with Willow wiping Tara's memory whenever they disagreed.

There's a reason why the legal system distinguishes between pre-meditated crimes and crimes of passion.

Willow's crime was pre-meditated, and she never even got that it was wrong,.

Spike's was a crime of passion, and he so much got that it was wrong that he went and got a soul.

Willow's crime was far, far, FAR worse.

I also think that altering a person's memory is one of the most evil things anyone could do to another; it seems worse than murder to me. It seems, to me, far, far, far worse than physically attacking someone. But that is just me. In any case, it's clear that Willow's action was pre-meditated but Spike's was not.

Hahaha, do you ever get the urge to post random ads like that, just to see who responds? Or is that just me?

Thinky thoughts of the Spike-ish kind

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