Thinky thoughts of the Spike-ish kind

[lirazel]

This is one of those "I'm having a conversation on whedonesque; tell me what you think about what I'm saying" posts.

This particular conversation starts out about Willow/Tara (and my thoughts line up precisely with Emmie's, big surprise there) and then becomes about S6 and then, finally, becomes about Spike.

And I just wrote a novel.

But I feel like I left something vital out.

Any thoughts?

Comments

[next_to_normal]

I don't know. I think in most cases it has more to do with fan preferences than anything else - witness Angel fans who lambaste Spike for the AR but forgive everything Angelus did, or Spike fans who forgive Spike for the AR but won't excuse Xander in "The Pack."

I guess the closest comparison to Willow would be Angel's deal with W&H, and I'd say the breakdown of acceptance vs. condemnation in fandom is about the same for both characters. (Although it might skew opinions a bit that "trying to save your son" is somewhat of a better reason than "trying to avoid an argument.")

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I think you're right.

And I do think the comparison works: I think what Angel did was completely wrong, but I have more compassion and understanding towards that action (even though I'm not usually a big fan Angel-fan in general) because it was "trying to save his son" (and I have a weakness for the Angel-Connor relationship).

[next_to_normal]

ME TOO OMG. To be honest, I think that was partly what clouded his judgment about Willow/Tara. He was so concerned with making them as happy as possible so it would hurt more when Tara died that he forgot to think about the implications of Tara taking back a girlfriend who'd abused her.

Unless, of course, Tara's death is meant to be her punishment for forgiving Willow... but I really don't think that's what he was going for.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

And you think I'm funny! Which is why I ♥ u!

I can see us now. Every eye will be drawn to us!

That icon will never stop being appropriate. EVER.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

He was so concerned with making them as happy as possible so it would hurt more when Tara died that he forgot to think about the implications of Tara taking back a girlfriend who'd abused her.


Exactly. I said something to that effect over at whedonesque (though not nearly as clearly), and I think you're right on. Joss often throws plot-sense-making/continuity/characterization under the bus for the sake of the big emotional payoff. I wish he'd realize that he doesn't have to do the former to get the later. He really can have it all.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I thought it was perfect. I didn't read that much farther past the first to responses to your post, but I didn't see anything new. You hit the main button on the head, which was that Spike's coolness was all a front, for a man/vampire who was never quite what he wanted to be. I have no idea where or how the guy you were responding to managed to miss that completely. Other than, perhaps he identifies with Xander and let that influence how he views Spike?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! Thanks!

You know, I don't think that he really identifies with Xander? Not that I've noticed in other threads, at least. He seems to be really, really, really into Faith, which I wouldn't think would create the blind-spot when it comes to Spike....But this is a position I've seen before with other people, and it's one I've never understood.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

It was just a thought. I was trying to imagine what show he could have been watching to have been #1 so bitter about Spike and #2 so worried about Xander's character. Maybe someone who looked/acted like Spike was mean to him in high school or something...

And I was just trying to edit the comment when you answered it and shut me out. lol I have no idea where I was going with that first sentence, but I obviously had my brain somewhere not involved with the syntax. I reread it and went "Huh?" I think I meant to say I only read the first few replies to your post, but have no idea why it didn't come out like that. *goes off to have caffeine containing beverage*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It was a reasonable thought and probably the conclusion I would have arrived at had I not read some of his other stuff in other threads.

Maybe someone who looked/acted like Spike was mean to him in high school or something...
This is me, chortling!

Hee! I hate the you-can't-edit-once-someone's-replied rule. Has it always been the case? Because I don't remember it being the case a while back. I understood what you meant, though, so never fear. And enjoy your caffeine!

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

Your discussion was passionate, but respectful. Way to represent! \o/

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[snickfic]

What Topher said.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

The more I think about Spike's ending in "Chosen," the more absolutely perfect I think it is.

*nods*

And that's why AtS S5 is dead to me.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

♥

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I totally understand that, and on a literary level, it's the only thing that makes sense.

But I let my love of watching Spike and Angel snipe at each other overcome that.... ;)

Plus, since he does come back, that means I get to write lots of happy-ending stories for him and Buffy! *celebrates*

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Ah, I'm glad you and Emmie comment to Whedonesque so I don't have to. :)

Though I wish I had my Whose Show is it Anyway? stats for you to link him to. You handled it deftly, in any case. :)

And thanks for throwing out a link to my Willow meta!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hee! I often feel the same way when Emmie comments. I was gonna say something in that very thread much earlier, but then she said it, so I didn't have to.

I actually thought, "Now would be a really, really good time to throw line-stats at him." ;)

You're welcome! It really is the best Willow meta I've seen (not that I go looking for them...), and I think you did a fantastic job with it. I loved it lots!

[shamoogity.livejournal.com]

I really adore reading your thoughts on BtVS, even when I disagree. In this case, I very much agree with your Willow/Tara thoughts (I have always thought that the best thing about their relationship is that even when things were going great, the seeds were already planted for its ultimate failure), but don't agree quite as much on Spike. I agree that he is definitely more of a loser than a "cool guy" but I disagree that they wrote him better than the other characters in S7. He went from being my favourite character in S5 and 6 to being the character whose scenes bored me to tears. It's interesting how so many people look at S7 as when they really fell in love with Spike because I found his scenes very repetitive. And as much as I never really shipped him and Buffy, I at least found their interactions really interesting prior to S7, at which point I started rolling my eyes half the time when they were on screen together.

Anyway, I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you on any particular points so much as on personal preference.

Hey look, I have a Spike S7 icon. I feel a bit hypocritical now.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! That's so nice to hear!

I have always thought that the best thing about their relationship is that even when things were going great, the seeds were already planted for its ultimate failure I totally agree with this, and that's a great way of putting it.

I don't think everyone should like Spike or whatnot, I just think it's silly to view him as a "cool" guy who's way more awesome than the other characters and who (apparently?) the other characters are always praising for being awesome. I just don't see that reading on the show at all. The evidence isn't there.

That said, I don't always love what he went through in S7. The First's pawn thing doesn't work for me. But at least he has an arc. Poor Xander doesn't. Plus, there really is some fantastic writing: "Beneath You," "Sleeper," etc. I love that. I fell in love with him in "Fool for Love," so I always already there, but I like the trajectory of his arc in S7. Even if I know what you mean about certain scenes getting repetitive (certainly, there are some!).

What I love about Buffy and Spike's relationship in S7 is that they're both so isolated from everyone else (Spike's even lost Dawn, his one ally...which I really hate, since I loved their relationship), and so they have to rely on each other. It seems to me that most American culture wants to tell us that in order to be strong, you have to be independent. I like seeing how being dependent upon each other makes them stronger. It's such a nice change.

Also, my key to enjoying Buffy and Spike's relationship in S7 is to watch what they do, not what they say. Because they certainly don't say much worth listening to ("Never Leave Me" professions of faith aside). For instance, the speech in "Touched" doesn't do anything for me. But they way they physically interact in that scene...that hits my sweet spot.

Anyway, I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you on any particular points so much as on personal preference. Which is totally valid, and I respect and understand where you're coming from. It makes perfect sense, even if I disagree.

Hee! Well, I have a Fred icon, and I really don't like Fred, so I guess I'm hypocritical, too.

[next_to_normal]

*sigh* Yes. Oh yes. I think it was rahirah who said recently that it wouldn't take much to fix Joss' plots so they make sense AND have an emotional payoff, but he just can't be bothered to make the effort. It's probably the thing that frustrates me most about him.

[next_to_normal]

Hey! I am a fair-skinned brunette, too. Well, right now I am a freckle-skinned brunette, but that's the sun's fault.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yes, indeed. I sometimes think Joss must have a pretty high opinion of himself that he doesn't think he needs to be careful about these things. It drives me crazy.

I could make a list of all the things he could fix with just a line or two. A LINE OR TWO. And...nothing.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

You can join our human work of art!

I freckle a bit, and then I burn, and then I go back to being pale. So I avoid the sun at all costs. I'm like Nicole Kidman. Except that I can still move my forehead. Also, I'm not anything like Nicole Kidman.

Also: appropriate icon is appropriate!

[next_to_normal]

Oooh! And I'm 5'6" so if Emmie, you, and me stand in a line in that order, we'll be like those AT&T "more bars in more places" ads!

[next_to_normal]

Oh, look. Here's a nice wall. Would you care to join me in bashing our heads against it? lol