lirazel | this is a petty, obnoxious, complaining post. please feel free to ignore it

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this is a petty, obnoxious, complaining post. please feel free to ignore it

I hate my job, and I have heard exactly one thing about today's S8 comic, and I'm already pissed. Now, I'm incredibly ignorant about anything else in this installment, but apparently Buffy kisses Angel/Twilight at the end. This is NOT COOL (not because of my shipper affiliation; I was pretty resigned to the idea that my ship won't ever be canon again) but because my Buffy would not kiss someone who was ACTIVELY KILLING SLAYERS. When she was with soulless!Spike, he wasn't killing anyone, he had a chip in his head, and he babysat her sister. But right now Angel is trying to kill her friends. I wouldn't care if someone wrote a fic like this. I do care when it's canon. But again, I don't know context, and that probably makes a difference, and when I find out what it is, I'll regret rambling like this. And maybe later Emmie will share reasons why this isn't such a bad thing at all. And if not, well, there's always Thought You Should Know, my S8 happy-place!

Also, while I'm being petty: in an interview, Scott Allie apparently said that Joss says the most important thing to Angel is Buffy. This makes me sadface, not because of the shipping thing (again: resigned) but because WHAT ABOUT CONNOR???? Anyone who says that Connor isn't the most important person in Angel's life is just ridiculous. Unless something happened in the Angel comics I'm not aware of, CONNOR IS ANGEL'S LIFE. PERIOD.

...aaand now I'm over it! Just needed to get it out of my system, apparently!

And I hope everyone who is reading the comics genuinely enjoyed this issue. I wish you only happy fandom love!

Still, I'm not having such a good day. I need more .gifs!

Buffy being adorable and Spike loving it always makes me feel better.

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So, this clip... I have never liked Buffy in this moment. Just because it combines at least three pet peeves of mine. BUT. I am still thankful for the scene, because it's the one and only time we get to see Spike looking quite like that. Young, and soft, and happy.

What are your pet peeves? I'm so interested now!

But yeah: that smile on his face is so wonderfully and rare!

Well. I don't like it when people make dramatic faces/noises, thereby attracting attention to themselves. Also, I don't like how some girls will only drink 'girly' mixed drinks and get all finicky over harder liquor. Third, I kind of view pulling a face, or excessive coughing after taking a drink as a sign of weakness. ...obviously this last one is especially dumb, and makes about as much sense as a guy who refuses to admit that he's cold when it's fucking cold outside.

I can handle all three of these things separately without being irritated, but when you roll it all together, then I start getting a little disdainful.

Although to be honest, I can think of one person in my life whom I love enough that if she did the exact same thing, I would probably be just as charmed.

I make no sense!

Wow! I would be like the walking embodiment of your pet peeves! The one time in my life I had a sip of whiskey (in an attempt to clear up a cold), I made this exact same face and danced around the room like I’d stubbed my toe. That stuff is nasty, and it made my face screw up of its own accord (I also shoved crackers in my mouth). I don’t like the taste of alcohol, and I’ve never had more than a few sips of anything, and the only thing I’ve ever had that I unabashedly liked was Magner’s Cider. Besides that, if I was a drinker, I’d probably only go for the little girly drinks. I get around this by not drinking at all!

Although to be honest, I can think of one person in my life whom I love enough that if she did the exact same thing, I would probably be just as charmed.
There are definitely people I love enough that I'm charmed by what would otherwise drive me crazy. Love does that!

Haha! That's okay. It just means that you and I will never go to a bar together ;) Whiskey is pretty much the only thing I'll drink. I mean.. I'm willing to drink other hard liquors, but I flat out refuse beer, wine and mixed drinks. All so very gross.

Hee! I don't really go to bars that often, anyway. Pubs-in-the-UK, on the other hand, are a different story.

Beer is nasty, nasty, nasty. The only okay-ish beer I've ever seen is in Belgium. As for wine, there are only a few white ones that I can tolerate. I don't know that I've ever had a mixed drink. Does sangria count? I wasn't crazy about it.

Um. I would call Sangria a mixed drink only because I have no idea what else to classify it as. And I don't like Sangria either. It has fruit in it. Fruit is what makes me pull faces.

Yeah, I have no clue what category it fits into. I love fruit, but apparently not with alcohol.

Wow! I would be like the walking embodiment of your pet peeves! The one time in my life I had a sip of whiskey (in an attempt to clear up a cold), I made this exact same face and danced around the room like I’d stubbed my toe.

Same here. I always make the goofy faces when drinking hard liquor.

On the other hand, I hate drinking fruity girly drinks, so I've forced myself to develop a taste for beer. That's pretty much what I drink nowadays when going for something alcoholic. Good ol' Shiner.

Also, I don't like how some girls will only drink 'girly' mixed drinks and get all finicky over harder liquor

*Winces* You'd hate me. :P I can't help my tastes!

Connorrrr :(

Isn't it, like, stated explicitly in the canon AtS s6 comics that Connor is the person Angel loves more than anything/anyone else? JOSS WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DOING. STOP IT.

I KNOOOOOOOW. That makes me a thousand times more upset than anything that could possibly happen involving the LOVE TRIANGLE OF DOOM.

CONNOR! *loves him* *loves that Angel loves him*

DIDN'T ANGEL HIMSELF SAY THAT AS LONG AS CONNOR WAS OKAY, NOTHING ELSE MATTERED? WHY, YES. YES HE DID.

Btw, I don't know if you ever read Buffyverse fic anymore, but if you want some Connor love, the fic I linked to in the post has some EPIC CONNOR. It's a Spuffy story, very Buffy-centric, really, but if you ever wanted to skim through and find Connor kicking ass, I think you would love it.

I need Connor icons. Actually I need more AtS icons in general, but it baffles me that I have no Connor icons. He's one of my favorite Buffyverse characters of all time.

SERIOUSLY JOSS GET A GRIP. THERE ARE SOME CANON SLIPS I CAN TOLERATE BUT NOW YOU GO TOO FAR. And I'm a B/A 'shipper who thinks that those two will always love each other on some level, but come on.

Oh, awesome! I need to check that out; I love fics that have Connor being excellent on the side.

carlyinrome's fic Fixer Uppers is technically Dawn/Faith with a side of Buffy/Angel, but there also Connor being the greatest, too. (Hee. We should swap recs more often.)

Edited 2010-03-03 22:20 (UTC)

DIDN'T ANGEL HIMSELF SAY THAT AS LONG AS CONNOR WAS OKAY, NOTHING ELSE MATTERED? WHY, YES. YES HE DID.

This. Take that, Joss.

Btw, I don't know if you ever read Buffyverse fic anymore, but if you want some Connor love, the fic I linked to in the post has some EPIC CONNOR.

Haha, okay, so I read your post, and then came back to the comments later, and when I saw this, I got all excited like, "Oooh, Epic Connor fic!" And then I scrolled up to see what fic you were talking about and was like, "Oh. Duh. Right. But I've read that one."

Didn't Joss also say in some other interview that Connor was the love of Angel's life, the way that Dawn was to Buffy? I wish I could find that quote.

Oh, that smile makes me melt into a puddle of goo.

Everything I read about the shipper forecast for S8 makes me think I need my woobie blanket. I just hope it all makes sense in the end. *wants to believe*

I don't know, but if such a quote exists, I need to find it, because that makes me the HAPPIEST PERSON EVER.

Oh, that smile makes me melt into a puddle of goo.
I know!

Everything I read about the shipper forecast for S8 makes me think I need my woobie blanket. I just hope it all makes sense in the end. *wants to believe* I need to quit reading about it. I really, really do. It just makes me sadface all over the place!

Still looking for that quote, but I found another that made me happy, and I thought I'd share:

I used to think that. I thought love was - something that swallowed you whole, ripped you up inside, but, you know, what I feel for Connor, even that fear... - Wes, it's - it's not terrible. It's beautiful.

I think that's my favorite Angel quote, ever. His love for Connor completely redeems this character for me.

That is absolutely gorgeous. It doesn't redeem him for me, but when he's focused on Connor, I unabashedly love him.

Thanks for sharing!

I do care when it's canon.
*is confused*
But, but...the comics aren't canon. Even Joss said he'd throw it out if there was ever a live action continuation, right? (Reading spoilers like these makes me so freakin' happy that I care so little about the comics. Of course, I think that Joss will NEVER EVER commit to a 'ship for Buffy, it's just not in his best interests. And funnily enough, even if it ended Buffy/Angel, I'd always have something to fall back on: I've always thought that the only way for those two to move past their past would be to actually get together. Because there is no way that Angel will go back to taking orders from Buffy when it comes to slaying ever again. And there is no way that Buffy will become a doormat and allow Angel all the power in their relationship ever again. At least I hope not, because that would mean that the Buffy I loved, the grown-up version, has regressed to her adolescent self again, and I never really did connect her back then.)

Edited 2010-03-03 20:58 (UTC)

Joss has said that, but no, the comics are canon. He says they're canon.

Of course, I think that Joss will NEVER EVER commit to a 'ship for Buffy, it's just not in his best interests I agree with this. But that doesn't mean he won't torture both sides while this lasts!

I totally agree, actually, about getting together forcing both of them to finally move on because they would see that their former dynamic is unworkable at this point in their lives. I actually wrote a (never posted) epic story in which Angel had shanshued, he and Buffy had tried to be together, and it didn't work out, for just those reasons that you mention.

At least I hope not, because that would mean that the Buffy I loved, the grown-up version, has regressed to her adolescent self again, and I never really did connect her back then. I could have written these words myself. I agree completely.

Personally, I don't consider the comics canon, no matter what Joss says about the matter. As a general rule, canon cannot just be discarded, in my opinion. The only way this is canon is if whatever new canon that could possibly happen in the future (unlikely though it may be) took the trouble to explain away the comics part of canon (time travel, alternate universe, whathaveyou). Joss's comment never gave me the impression that he had any intention of doing so, he would just nullify the whole thing. So that's what it is to me in terms of canon - nothing.

And I think you're forgetting about one thing, even though you mentioned it yourself:

But that doesn't mean he won't torture both sides while this lasts!
BOTH sides. If Buffy is snogging Angel, I can't help but think that there is some powerful Spike/Buffy interaction coming our way. To be honest, I never thought I'd see anything like that, so I'm intrigued. (Not enough not to be horrified at the Buffy/Angel stuff, but that's just my personal distaste for that 'ship rearing its ugly head.)

I feel the same way you do about the comics re: canon. I just don't care. Except that I'm still in this fandom, and if everyone else calls it canon....

I'm especially worried about this installment, because apparently there's a huge retcon in Buffyverse mythology, involving the nature of vamps and Slayers. The idea of this is horrifying to me.

If Buffy is snogging Angel, I can't help but think that there is some powerful Spike/Buffy interaction coming our way. To be honest, I never thought I'd see anything like that, so I'm intrigued. I would agree with you, except that I torture myself by reading the Q&As with Jeanty, Allie, etc., and they all seem to think that Joss thinks it's All About Angel. If you are right, I do think things could be epically intriguing, and I really hope it's true.

(Not enough not to be horrified at the Buffy/Angel stuff, but that's just my personal distaste for that 'ship rearing its ugly head.)
Agreed. I never liked it anyway, but Buffy's fought too hard and too long to move past Angel. Going there again feels like regression to me.

I'm not really active in fandom, but I still consider it one of my fandoms and I don't consider it canon! Come over to the dark side, where anything is possible! (Because canon is closed. *g*)

That retcon does sound horrifying, but then again, a lot of people consider Spike's entire journey a retcon of the nature of vampires and I love that journey with the passion of a thousand suns, so...

I just can't imagine Joss caring all that much about Buffy/AngelTwoLuv4Evah! If he's All About Angel, then it's because he's planning to make Angel be the source of Buffy's pain. That's what it always comes down to with him. Yes, this means that Angel is still important to Buffy, but unlike you, I never thought that Buffy moved past Angel. I think she left him in the past, but perfectly preserved, as a shining beacon of all that she could never have by virtue of her calling. I never thought she processed what happened and came out on the other side. And I put a lot of the blame on Angel, because he robbed her of any say in their relationship. I have never been more disgusted by the pairing than in IWRY. I will NEVER understand how anyone can think that episode is romantic or a positive thing for them. I think that if Buffy was ever given back the memories of what happened, it'd finally open up her eyes and force her to face what their relationship really was. Because it proved - yet again! - that Angel was never willing to fight for them.

Hee! I like your dark side!

That's true about Spike's journey; I never considered it that way. *takes hope*

Actually, I agree with you about the shining beacon thing. I was thinking more on a practical level--she's made a life apart from him, she is a completely different person than she was back then. Mentally, yeah, she's never processed it, but on a day-to-day level, she's had to. And I like that she has.

I have never been more disgusted by the pairing than in IWRY. I will NEVER understand how anyone can think that episode is romantic or a positive thing for them. I think that if Buffy was ever given back the memories of what happened, it'd finally open up her eyes and force her to face what their relationship really was. Because it proved - yet again! - that Angel was never willing to fight for them.

I agree 100%. (This also reminds me of Donna on Doctor Who--I feel the same way about it there.)

but apparently Buffy kisses Angel/Twilight at the end. This is NOT COOL

UGH. GROSS. WHY.

I agree with your sentiment, re: Angel killing Slayers, but it's frustrating too how repetitive it always is with those two. Really, there is still so much simmering chemistry between them that, when in close contact with one another, things result in a screw-all-else kiss? WHAT? HOW? WHY?

Scott Allie apparently said that Joss says the most important thing to Angel is Buffy.

I could buy this as truth if we were talking Angel the Series season 1, where Angel was but a poor, lost puppy dog of a vampire, doomed to wander the world alone, but... after the entire run of the show, where he came to care for ALL of his team? Where he fell in love with Cordy? Where he had a son? Where he had this whole separate life away from Buffy? They're telling me that all that was but a pale comparison to his steady and unwavering but canonically forgotten love for Buffy?

This is why I don't read the comics. It reads less of an extension of canon and more of people taking well-established characters, hollowing them out to be recognizable only on the surface, and spinning up elaborate, audience-drawing ploys to entertain, that's it.

UGH. GROSS. is right!

, but it's frustrating too how repetitive it always is with those two. Really, there is still so much simmering chemistry between them that, when in close contact with one another, things result in a screw-all-else kiss? WHAT? HOW? WHY?

Exactly. They regress when they're around each other. Buffy becomes sixteen again. Thisis not a good thing. If Joss tried to convince me that they could both be grownups and be together, I'd find it much easier to deal with. But he doesn't even try. I always hate when Angel shows up on BtVS because he doesn't act like the guy who has his own show. It's frustrating.

EXACTLY. BtVS!Angel and AtS!S1!Angel: yes. All about Buffy. But his team and Cordy and especially, especially, especially Connor have shaped him in ways Buffy couldn't ever hope to.

This is why I don't read the comics. It reads less of an extension of canon and more of people taking well-established characters, hollowing them out to be recognizable only on the surface, and spinning up elaborate, audience-drawing ploys to entertain, that's it.

I don't read them either, for this very reason. When I say I've read way, way better fic...I'm entirely sincere. Most good!fic is more in-character than this comics nonsense.

I love, love, love that scene! It makes me feel good too. :)

Just picked up last month's comic on Sunday and found out the new one was going to be in today. *sigh* It's just a bit too long a drive to make for no other reason than to pick up a comic book the day it's in. Maybe this weekend...

Aw, Spike's expression is so adorable in the gif. To me, platonic!Spuffy was so much more fun to watch than naked!angsty!violent!Spuffy. Why couldn't their relationship have stayed like that? Why? *sobs*

But, yeah, in regards to the comics: Joss and company, you are now officially made of fail. :(

Also, while I'm being petty: in an interview, Scott Allie apparently said that Joss says the most important thing to Angel is Buffy.

Maybe I'm deluding myself, but (although I did kind of cringe when I read it) I'm pretty sure that was only meant in the context of the Buffy comics and of the Twilight plot in particular. I took it just the same way that I took Angel showing up on Buffy in seasons 5 and 7: he never really seemed like the same character as the guy on Angel who was falling in love with Cordy and having a mystical un-undead kid.

I definitely *wish* that full-character-development!Angel would show up on Buffy, because I think he's much more interesting (and occasionally funny!) than the Angel who does make appearances. But when he shows up, it's pretty much always in a limited fashion that plays into whatever Buffy's going through. He's never been in this series as his own person - he's always been an accessory to her. I guess all the characters are, to a certain extent (hey, it's her show!), but it's especially noticeable with him because we recognize what we're losing (actual character growth!) when he turns two-dimensional on Buffy.

Wow, I really didn't think I was going to go on this long (or sound this negative). Sorry!

To clarify, Allie later expounded upon the statement to say he did in fact believe Angel held Buffy in more importance than Connor.

THAT PISSES ME OFF. *clutches Connor* SERIOUSLY.

Except that maybe this is because of the whole MAGICAL CONNECTION thing and not any real feelings? *worries*

Do you happen to have a link to that?

Here's the first and second parts over at

ladypeyton's journal. She sent Scott an email and a follow-up, including his responses.

Thanks, hon. I'll check it out.

Youch. That part, I did not read.

...

Nope, not computing. The guy's just wrong, end of story.

I just...

I'm so upset and angry right now. I got an inkling of badness on the way to the comics store and I couldn't even feel excited the way I normally do as I bought the issue and walked to my car. Dread was weighing me down. And I read it and the first half was good. Then the Angel-reveal and Buffy's rage was good. Then it stopped and this weird glowy shit started happening and Angel kept talking about how they were SPESHUL and how she can FEEL HIM and then they both started glowing and rising in the air and she kissed him. And I'm all WTF?!?!?!

I think it's something to do with the power inside both of them. That which is making Angel go all crazy and egotistical in the extreme (even for him) is what's making Buffy lose it. I think Angel's been going insane from having god-like powers all season, and now when the two get together, they glow with these weird powers and it's making Buffy act crazy. Drunk on the glow of power.

But GOD. I don't like this. NO.

But I think the key to remember is that when Buffy was stripped of her powers in Retreat, she said "I feel more now" and she turned to Xander in affection (someone who she loves and trusts and has always been there for her). Now this is the extreme opposite, she's superpowered and full of destiny and feeling a destined glowing connection and all I can read is that it's ARTIFICIAL.

Oh, honey. I'm sorry. I really did think that you'd come in here and explain everything away and I would feel ashamed for ranting. Especially because I love how much you love the comics and want you always to enjoy them.

I will say, I just read

2maggie2's new post, and it made me feel a little better because it seemed to be embracing the idea of that this is totally subverting the Bangel ship and, in essence, ruining it. Maybe it'll make you feel better.

I'm so, so sorry. :(

I think there's a part that could be subverting it and I can get behind it. But I'm worried about that not happening. And I'm getting so sick of certain fans excusing Angel's behavior. Some people are treating it like it's perfectly normal for Buffy to make-out with Angel. That his explanation actually justified KILLING SLAYERS and staging a war between Slayers and the army.

I'm just more fed up with the Buffy/Angel insanity of it all and I'm hoping that it means that Buffy isn't in her right mind because of this new power throwing her all askew.

I'm worried, too. Especially because you're worried.

I'm pretty furious about the explanation, too. I'll be interested to see the actual explanation, because I haven't heard much about it yet. I'll have to hunt it down.

I'm just more fed up with the Buffy/Angel insanity of it all and I'm hoping that it means that Buffy isn't in her right mind because of this new power throwing her all askew.

I have this hope as well.

Hey, the more Season 8 diverges, the more it motivates me to fix it in my own story. Bright side?

Oh, and I hope you liked the short one-shot I sent to you! You'll be relieved to know that while it's about Willow, it's through Buffy's POV and in reality, it's all about Buffy, too. :) (I think I'm incapable of not being all about Buffy...should I be worried?)

I don't care too much for the comics.

I'm just dismayed at the general "Thou shalt not ever move on" attitude directed to both Angel and Buffy. Folks, they had 4+ years of experiences after they broke up. They're not the center of each other's lives anymore. And what's more, they don't want to be.

For the love of holy penguins, can't people move the fuck on from a past love??

I'm sorry you hate your job. :( And I don't even have a "My hat has a cow" icon for you, or any of Xander's random S4 jobs...

As for the other - as I said on Maggie's LJ, her description makes it sound as though Buffy can't be happy with or without Angel, dooming her to misery for all time. Which... !!!!!!!!

Also, while I'm being petty: in an interview, Scott Allie apparently said that Joss says the most important thing to Angel is Buffy. This makes me sadface, not because of the shipping thing (again: resigned) but because WHAT ABOUT CONNOR???? Anyone who says that Connor isn't the most important person in Angel's life is just ridiculous. Unless something happened in the Angel comics I'm not aware of, CONNOR IS ANGEL'S LIFE. PERIOD.

I've been watching the second Angel season, and honestly, Buffy wasn't even Angel's only true love. He's just as infatuated with Darla as he was with Buffy, and in a very similar "forbidden love" kind of way - the same with Buffy and Spike. I actually love Buffy and Angel, but Darla and Spike respectively make me wonder how much they truly loved one another and how much they loved loving someone they weren't supposed to love. Which is sad, because again, I love the pairing itself. It's just... Angel goes from one blond he shouldn't love to another; Buffy goes from one vampire to another.

But anyway, I honestly don't think Joss gets parenthood. I don't think he necessarily undermines it... I just think he's very jaded. He's got daddy issues, but even his mothers haven't been the best. Joyce was a good mother to Buffy (I guess - I sort of think she was a bit flaky TBH), but as soon as she came close to truly connecting with her daughter, she was Joss'd. Xander and Willow forgot their parents existed and possibly vice versa. I think Joss is more focused on romance, even if he does kill off his romantic pairings frequently, resulting in statements like that.

Edited 2010-03-04 01:07 (UTC)

Like you, I'm resigned to the idea that Spuffy will probably never happen again in a world where Joss rules but this whole Angel being Twilight is just too much.. I really don't get where Joss is trying to go here.

I agree with everything you just said!

Love the .gif! Sorry about the bad day.

*hugs*
Seeing all these spoilers I'm just glad I don't read the comics. *shudder*

Firstly, Spike's face in the clip just makes me want to lie down in a darkened room and weep because I am not Joss and so couldn't have B and S go off together in a cloud of happy-ever afterness. So instead I send myself to sleep by running alternative movies in my head where Spuffy triumphs.

Secondly, I have not read the comics. I am tempted as it would be so lovely to immerse myself once more in the Buffy universe - and then there would always be the chance that my fantasy scenarios would be part of canon! But then I read comments and spoilers and I don't know if I want to have THAT version of events in my head. B and A were like your 1st great love - intense and fabulour and mostly doomed to fail. - but rarely able to be part of the you you become as you get older and life gets complicated. A's mature love was for Cordy (and Connor really) and B and S went through so much together - their relationship was based on something real. So I do not want the whole thing to come back to B and A - it seems too adolescent and regressive.

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this is a petty, obnoxious, complaining post. please feel free to ignore it

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All things Buffy