lirazel | Fannish Friday: creators and their creations

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Fannish Friday: creators and their creations

Sometimes terrible people make great things. This is disconcerting! But also a part of life!

There are lots of examples. The one that comes to mind as applying to the most people is the creator of Harry Potter, who is a truly hateful and bigoted person, but who created something that brought a lot of people joy.

I'm curious about a) what creations you love from creators you hate and b) how you think about them.

There's a spectrum of feelings about the creators. For instance, I think Aaron Sorkin is an asshole and he irritates the heck out of me, but also I love The West Wing and many of the films whose screenplays he wrote. But the dissonance isn't that intense because I don't know that I think he's a bad person, just a really privileged and full of himself white dude who isn't great at looking at things from others' perspectives.

Further along the spectrum towards reprehensibility is our old friend Joss Whedon. I think he's pretty terrible! I judge him a lot for how he treated the women who worked for him! He was clearly a bad husband! But boy do I ever love Buffy Summers and her universe. He hasn't really made anything since the early 2000s that I actually care about, so it's relatively easy for me to just ignore his existence and instead continue to love Buffy and Dawn and Cordy and Dru and whoever.

On the far end of the spectrum is Orson Scott Card, who is a truly terrible and dangerous person. Wow, he's awful! And yet, he wrote Speaker for the Dead, which is a book that speaks deeply to me about empathy and our common humanity. (I also liked Ender's Game a lot as a kid, though I think I've outgrown it as an adult.) I will literally never understand how he was able to write something so deeply moving and then also be...himself. I just remind myself that sometimes the art is greater than the artist and that this is mysterious and a gift.

I'm pretty easily able to separate out of my feelings about these creators from their works. It's harder with actors, where you see their faces--for instance, I can't watch the Mia Wasikowska version of Jane Eyre no matter how beautiful it is, because I can't handle watching the face of a man who beats women. Like, no thank you!--so there are absolutely actors whose work I simply will not watch.

And I am very happy to draw a hard line for myself about not giving money to people who are terrible. I've seen several Polanski films, for instance, but always borrowed from the library. I would never, ever, ever give that many a dime. Ever. Nor would I ever pay for anything by Card. I personally feel that for art that I want to encounter but don't want to support the creator, I can just pirate the hell out of it and feel no guilt whatsoever. And if the creator is long dead, then it doesn't matter!

A more complicated question is the question of public engagement with the works of someone hateful. I find it easy to not interact with Harry Potter in any way anymore because, while I liked it, it never meant as much to me as it does to other people. But there's a lot of conversation in fandom about whether it's okay to continue to participate in Harry Potter fandom now that we know who She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named truly is.

I don't know the answer! When I hear people argue, "You shouldn't engage with Harry Potter stuff at all because doing so promotes She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named's brand and gives her more power," I think, "Yeah, that seems correct." But then when other people argue, "The creation is always greater than the creator, and fans have taken this world and made it their own and that community's love and time have made it into something that cannot be tarnished by its origins," I also think, "Yeah, that seems correct." So as long as people are defending Her or giving her any money, I don't judge how people choose to engage or not with Harry Potter. I leave that to others' consciences.

I've been lucky so far in that no piece of art that is deeply a part of me has origins from the really terrible end of the spectrum, so I haven't had to really grapple with anything thorny in the way that Harry Potter or Big Bang fans have. But I know it's just a matter of time before I find out that one of my most beloved and formative pieces of art was created by someone who is actually, objectively a terrible influence on the world, so I think about it quite a lot even now.

So I'm interested in hearing anyone's thoughts about how they deal with these questions. Tell me about a creator you can't stand who made something you love! Tell me about how you think about that! Tell me what decisions you've made about how to engage with that kind of art! Anything at all!

Just be respectful that other people draw moral lines in different places than you do and that these things are complicated and almost never black-and-white.

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There are just so many examples. I feel I've dodged two major bullets in this way. The first is, despite growing up in a town that is completely saturated by Penn State football, I never developed any affection for it, so although I was shocked and horrified by the abuse scandal when it emerged, it also didn't change my view on anyone or anything, and I didn't have to make any complex decisions about whether or not to watch football. The closest I come is whether or not to argue with one of my best friends about her enduring loyalism, and my conclusion is that I will always say something, but I will always move on quickly, and her conclusion is she will always give me a brief speech about how much money the coach gave to the library.

The second is with Harry Potter, which, if you can believe it, I tried to get into on multiple occasions, and every time, I failed. I just plain couldn't like it! What a relief now, really.

But there are artists I do like who have done horrible things. For example, my same friend who is a Penn State football loyalist is going to see MJ the musical in a few weeks, and I was honestly surprised. Like I grew up loving Michael Jackson, but...can we really?

Oh I thought of a third dodged bullet. I never liked Johnny Depp! Now I actively hate him, but it wasn't a huge transition from "neutral leaning hostile".

Last thought maybe: I do think it sucks about Picasso. I was never obsessed, but damn.

Yeah. That does suck.

Ooof! Yeah, you definitely did dodge some real bullets!

my conclusion is that I will always say something, but I will always move on quickly

This seems like a reasonable conclusion. Nagging doesn't change anyone's mind, but not saying something could violate your conscience.

The second is with Harry Potter, which, if you can believe it, I tried to get into on multiple occasions, and every time, I failed. I just plain couldn't like it! What a relief now, really.

This cracks me up!

Michael Jackson is a really, really good example. I still enjoy the music! But yeah, I definitely would never, ever support anything that supports the mythologizing of him.

Now I actively hate him, but it wasn't a huge transition from "neutral leaning hostile".

Same.

Thanks for this thoughtful discussion. I think about this a lot with Wagner; I love a lot of his music, even though I've also thought about whether it's wrong for me to listen to it as a Jew. I tend to give myself a pass, on the grounds that a) even Meistersinger (musically my favorite!) isn't explicitly in-so-many-words antisemitic, and b) the music, not the lyrics, is music and by definition free of -isms (and beautiful). I don't know what I'd do if Wagner had been born fifty years later and had, as I'm sure he would have, been an actual Nazi and not just an inspiration for them. I don't know if his music would then have been suppressed, if it would be the source of (even more) controversy, or what.

I've also spent some time thinking about it, as I expect a bunch of us have, with regard to cdramas and so on. It's easy to give the actors a bit of a pass--most people aren't up to throwing away their careers in order to protest a system they grew up within--but still not a lot of fun to see an actor whom I otherwise respect as a human being doing the patriotic-puppy-eyes thing for a rotten system. I thought about it a lot when I was watching The Rebel, which is a terrific Republican-era drama which occasionally breaks into clunky propaganda; my eventual feeling was that I could support the skill and commitment of the actors and staff without supporting the compulsory propaganda parts, but I don't know how valid that is. I suppose in general you have to take another approach again when dealing with a screwed-up system than with screwed-up individuals (sorry for drastic over-simplification etc.).

Oh, yes, Wagner is like the ur-example of this!

Yeah, I feel the same way about cdramas. But I have to remind myself that people are just not good at moving out of the narratives they've grown up with, so it's not a surprise that they accept what they're told by the Chinese propaganda machine. There are certainly enough USAmericans who refuse to acknowledge its ills.

I suppose in general you have to take another approach again when dealing with a screwed-up system than with screwed-up individuals (sorry for drastic over-simplification etc.).

Yeah, system vs. individual is a different thing and adds another layer of complication!

It's such a difficult topic that now and again pops up in my friend circle because many of us simply looove movies and so discussions about where to draw the line if someone turns out to be a terrible human being (actors, directors, writers... ).

It's not something I would want to police for other people, I think we all have to decide for ourselves what we're okay with, what we are able to tolerate to keep on engaging with perhaps once beloved content. It's a different case if someone actually makes escuses for the shitty person, like, IDK "Polanski is such an auteur, all that stuff is in the past and life was like that back then", like, the fuck, no!

Pirating the hell out of it seems like the thing to do! XD It's also like, especially with movies, if I stopped watching everything where a shitty person is/was involved at some point, well, tbh, not much would still be there to watch! Hollywood is a cesspool of shitty people! The spectrum of shittiness is wide and varied and so I have to judge what I can "forget" while watching a movie and what I can't.

I was lucky enough that I was never into "Harry Potter" so much. I read the books and watched the movies and very, very lightly engaged a bit with fandom on LJ, because it was adjacent to other stuff I liked. But it's not like those books or movies were formative for me or meaned a lot to me. They were entertainment and nothing more. I'm really feeling so sorry for everyone who loved these books with all their heart and whose treasured memories are now so tainted. But with all that shit with the author, I felt my interest to ever engage with the books again completely fade and so I sold my books as a set on ebay. That way, I got some money out of it, and someone else didn't buy new ones and gave that author more money. Win win I guess. XD

Mostly, I'm pretty much okay with watching stuff with shitty people in it or created by shitty people. I can still enjoy "Baby Driver" (my favourite movie of the year it came out) even though Kevin Spacey is a fucked up asshole and some other actors have also proved to be quite shitty. I'm sure I've got Miramax films that I can still watch even though I know that the company behind it was run by a despicable monster.

But.
For many, many years, I was a huge Johnny Depp fan, starting with the first PotC movie. I collected his movies, magazines and books about him etc. I was really fannish, mainly about his movies, but also about him. That cooled down over the years, mostly because I got sucked into Sherlock fandom and simultaneously his acting started to decline (so, roughly from 2012/2013 onwards). The PotC fandom was quietening down considerably, too, after On Stranger Tides (the 4th one), and so I wasn't as invested anymore. When he left his long-time partner and got together with Amber Heard, I immediately thought, "Ah, midlife crisis hits" and that was that. The fifth PotC was... not good, when it comes to Depp in it. I was still quite hyped when it came out, because it was PotC! But he felt like he was playing a parody of himself, and the longer I thought about it, the worse it got. That was when the controversy and first accusations came out.

The thing is, I was not surprised that he turned out to be such a scumbag. Back then, I didn't follow the news all that much, I was fully in other fandoms, his behaviour pissed me off, and that was that. But when that trial happened last year... ohhh boy. I kept very quiet on social media because I had no interest in being swarmed by hysterical Deppwives, but I still don't understand how someone who is a fan of his, can make excuses for him. The signs for this shit have been there for decades! I don't know how, after reading those text messages and seeing his drunken ramblings, someone can still say that Heard is the devil and he's just the poor victim.

That whole thing really brought home how batshit crazy the internet is, how much fun people have bringing a woman down when the accused is a guy who used to be pretty handsome and was iconic in that one movie! I actually wrote a long post about it on LJ, as that was the place where I was so fannish about him for so long.

*deepbreath*
It still pisses me off so much. It's not killed PotC for me, because that original trilogy will forever be in my heart and he can't sour it, because I know that at that particular time, he had a "good phase", so to speak. Also, Jack Sparrow is petty much separate in my head from his actor nowadays, because I engaged so much with that fandom back then.

But I indeed do not want to watch movies where Depp looks like himself, or pretty much anything besides PotC. And even that, I'm wary as of now.

I think most important is that we are critical about the creators and ackowledge if they're shitty. Whether we can watch/read their stuff anymore or not, I guess it depends on how well we can separate them from their art, or how fannish we were/are, or what they did. It's difficult and I don't think there's the one perfect answer.

It's not something I would want to police for other people, I think we all have to decide for ourselves what we're okay with, what we are able to tolerate to keep on engaging with perhaps once beloved content. It's a different case if someone actually makes escuses for the shitty person, like, IDK "Polanski is such an auteur, all that stuff is in the past and life was like that back then", like, the fuck, no!

This just about sums up my feelings too!

It's also like, especially with movies, if I stopped watching everything where a shitty person is/was involved at some point, well, tbh, not much would still be there to watch! Hollywood is a cesspool of shitty people! The spectrum of shittiness is wide and varied and so I have to judge what I can "forget" while watching a movie and what I can't.

Exactly.

Thank you for sharing your experience! This is such a personal thing for everyone!

It goes completely on subjective feels for me. I won't pay for a book by Orson Scott Card, but I'll buy and enjoy them used. Ditto Roman Polanski.

Woody Allen is ruined for me though, and I used to love his movies. I will never watch one again. I'm viscerally repulsed.

Actors are harder than writers for me because I'm literally looking at their faces, even though actors are in movies which are a group effort, as opposed to books which are solo. The bad person is solely responsible for the book, but on a feels level books bother me less than movies.

Yeah, I get the subjective feels thing. I know there are plenty of men in Hollywood who are as terrible as Johnny Depp and Michael Fassbender, but somehow those are the two whose films I simply cannot watch.

Actors are harder than writers for me because I'm literally looking at their faces, even though actors are in movies which are a group effort, as opposed to books which are solo. The bad person is solely responsible for the book, but on a feels level books bother me less than movies.

This is understandable to me!

I haven’t read Harry Potter, and nor do I know much about the creator’s views on social justice issues. So I simply don’t engage in the works and move on.

Which sounds simple and a lot easier said than done.

On the flip side, one can argue there’s a fine line between calling out on legitimate issues and cancelling celebs and people on social media for simply engaging in works, like playing a video game or watching a movie.

Perfect icon for the topic!

Thanks! It’s a fitting icon for the topic.

Yeah this is sure a thing that I think everyone has to grapple with in one way or another in the modern world. And in so many arenas of life!

I do not pay a lot of attention to celebrity news or celebrity opinions, so I mostly only hear about bad actors (hah!) when discussion of them breaks containment into general discourse. But I also do not watch a lot of tv/movies, so it doesn't come up much whether I want to support actors who have done terrible things. It comes up more often for me with writers.

For the most part, if I were to break it down into a set of rules, my criteria for how I engage with the creative works of people who I strongly morally disagree with are as follows:

Will they get money from the way I am engaging? (eg buying a new copy of an Orson Cott Card book) If yes, I don't engage in that way

Do the ways in which they're horrible get reflected in choices that are made in their creative works? (eg Joss Whedon's misogyny is visible in the scripts he writes) If yes, I'm no longer interested in engaging

Are they using their social clout to actively make the world worse for marginalized people? (eg jk rowling campaigning against the safety of trans people) If yes, I refrain from providing any more backing to their social clout

Did/do they specifically use the authority/respect provided to them by the admiration for their creative work in order to abuse people (eg hymn-writer David Haas, theologian John Howard Yoder) If yes then I am filled with the oogies and no longer want to engage.

So for the most part I end up pirating or buying used copies, not squeeing about a thing without significant up-front caveats, or leaving a thing behind entirely. Sometimes it's a lot harder than others! Harry Potter was extremely important to me for many years, so it took me some time to emotionally reckon with that whole situation. But it was very easy to stop watching movies starring Johnny Depp.

Edited (making my list more readable) 2023-03-31 19:47 (UTC)

I do not pay a lot of attention to celebrity news or celebrity opinions, so I mostly only hear about bad actors (hah!) when discussion of them breaks containment into general discourse.

Same!

Will they get money from the way I am engaging? (eg buying a new copy of an Orson Cott Card book) If yes, I don't engage in that way

Absolutely. This, to me, seems like a simple line to draw.

I think all of your considerations are good ones and make complete sense.

You're so right in that this kind of thing can be very complicated--I think that what counts as "terrible" can be very easy to pinpoint sometimes (for example: someone like T. S. Eliot, whose poetry I love, while recognising that he was a racist, antisemitic piece of shit), and sometimes, less so (people like Borges or Mujica Lainez, who I think were amazing writers, but had social+political views that I dislike, because they were conservative and elitist and so on... but were they bad people?) It's complicated and subjective, because if I shared their views, then I'd have no problem, but I don't, so I still love their work, but I have to separate the creator from the creation, so I can criticise their views while still being able to say "their work was amazing"! I mentioned MML specifically, because he hits closer to home: I always want a fellow queer person to have better politics, but it's not always possible, and we're all contradictions in some way, right?

But I know it's just a matter of time before I find out that one of my most beloved and formative pieces of art was created by someone who is actually, objectively a terrible influence on the world, so I think about it quite a lot even now.

I think we're all in this situation at some point! I like a lot of old books, and if I dig deep enough, I'm probably going to find something unpleasant in most of them! But I guess it's easier to deal with people who are long dead, so while we don't excuse them, we can place them in their context and time period? With modern/currently alive people, if their shitty behaviour is happening right now, it can be harder to ignore. Still, I would never judge people who decided to do a clean break between creator and creation, and keep engaging with it, because, like I was writing above, sometimes that's how you can keep on enjoying it. And also, if people find joy in it, and have "made it their own", like you said, that's absolutely important and valid too, especially if this means that people can reclaim the creation, in spite of its creator, if that makes sense? This also makes me think about transformative works and how people can use them to "fix" things in some way, and I think it's so vindicating! <3

Also: what you were saying about these things almost never being black and white is something I absolutely agree with. It makes me think about how sometimes it seems that it's easier to criticise creations from other cultures, without knowing all of their nuances, so I mentioned some local examples above, because it's something I think about a lot. If I'm willing to criticise a creator from a culture I don't belong to, then I'm definitely going to "begin at home" and criticise local ones too!

I just remind myself that sometimes the art is greater than the artist and that this is mysterious and a gift.

Yes! That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? Thanks for sharing such a thought-provoking post!

You're so very right about ti being complicated and subjective.

But I guess it's easier to deal with people who are long dead, so while we don't excuse them, we can place them in their context and time period? With modern/currently alive people, if their shitty behaviour is happening right now, it can be harder to ignore.

Yes, true.

What a fascinating topic! I think I need to think about this more and come back later but my gut reaction is Johnny Depp and Marion Zimmer Bradley

Oh gosh, yeah, MZB is such a good example!

I think my first experience of this was finding out about Marion Zimmer Bradley, after a late childhood/early preteenhood of being obseeeeeesssed with the Avalon books. Even though she is dead, I don't think I could even look at her books any longer without being deeply repulsed.

For people for whom the disagreement is less visceral, I tend to follow a system similar to that which Soph described so well above. I will not give money to the people or their estates if that money will be used for evil. And, in this day and age, I tend to feel that nothing can't be replaced. There are so many good books, movies, albums, etc. out there that the loss of one is a wound that can be soothed.

Also, I tend to think of things like this as… moral weightlifting? Probably it is NOT the worst thing I could do to buy or borrow, rather than pirate, a book by a detestable author, for example. But if I can't withstand that small denial of pleasure, how in the world will I practice for when a much bigger and more important ask comes along?

Yeah! This is how I think about mask-wearing--if I don't have the courage to wear one even when no one else is, how can I expect that I'd make a much weightier decision?

Ooof, yeah, she's such a good example. (I personally never vibed with her books--I read the first Avalon book in high school and hated it--but that is such an extreme example, and I know she was beloved by many people!)

And, in this day and age, I tend to feel that nothing can't be replaced. There are so many good books, movies, albums, etc. out there that the loss of one is a wound that can be soothed.

I like this perspective a lot.

This is an interesting topic, and not one where I think there is a clear way forward? I mean, obviously don't throw money at problematic creators, but where do we draw the line?

As it happens I watched this video the other day which deals with this (from a HP perspective), if you're interested. (Also works well if you just want to listen, it's mostly talking.)

Now I think there is a distinction to be made between artists that are alive and those who have passed away - if they're dead the support doesn't go to them directly. Someone mentioned MJ, and I don't feel guilty listening to his music? But I also wouldn't go out of my way to do anything else. What baffles me are those who are still fans? Like: 'Oh I adore Michael Jackson! I'm so sad I never got to go to one of his concerts'... without any caveats? I have had this said to me by a co-worker and I legit didn't know how to respond. What I wanted to say was 'It doesn't bother you that he was a pedophile?' but I have to work with this person every day, and the man is dead. But it's so strange!?!

This was very random, I'll probably be back once I've gotten my brain in gear.

People definitely draws the line in very different places! And yes, I agree about the different line between those who are living and those who are dead.

Someone mentioned MJ, and I don't feel guilty listening to his music? But I also wouldn't go out of my way to do anything else. What baffles me are those who are still fans? Like: 'Oh I adore Michael Jackson! I'm so sad I never got to go to one of his concerts'... without any caveats? I have had this said to me by a co-worker and I legit didn't know how to respond. What I wanted to say was 'It doesn't bother you that he was a pedophile?' but I have to work with this person every day, and the man is dead. But it's so strange!?!

Agreed!!!

I have exactly two lots of creations I can't interact with. (1) Roman Polanski (for obvious reasons) and (2) the Australian TV series "Hey Dad" (for similar reasons; the main actor was abusing one of the child cast members for the entire run of the series).

Anything else, I don't mind.

I think child abuse is a very reasonable line to draw!

I cannot overstate how much HP meant to me growing up (I was eight when I started reading them and 16 when they ended), so that's definitely (a) for me, although saying I "love" them feels fraught. What JKR has become absolutely breaks my heart, and it hurts to think about and has ruined reading the books for me. They used to be my comfort books, and when I was feeling down a few months ago and started Philosopher's Stone, it didn't help.

I haven't gotten rid of my HP books or paraphernalia and don't plan to because except for one shirt that a friend gifted me (unsolicited) for my 30th birthday, they were all bought and cherished before she revealed herself to be so ugly. I sleep with a Gryffindor comforter, and every single day of my life I wear a lightning bolt necklace that I've had since I was 11 or 12 years old (and usually an HP ring that my best friends gave me for my birthday in 2019); I'd feel naked if I didn't wear my necklace. I am more cautious about when/where I wear my two HP shirts, though, as I don't want to offend people.

I don't buy anything from her anymore, and if I ever did for some reason, I'd feel morally obligated to donate an equal amount to a transgender advocacy organization. I can't say I know what I'll do if I ever get the chance to go back to Universal Studios' Wizarding World, which my uncle took me to in LA in 2019 and which I adored. Once up on a time I really wanted to go to the FL one, which is supposed to be amazing.

I wasn't a big fan of the movies and was often irked at how much they changed from the books, but I'm grateful now for their existence, and I think it's still okay to enjoy them considering (a) how many hundreds if not thousands of other people contributed to them and (b) how supportive DanRad and other members of the cast have been of transgender people. It's like how BtVS is so much more than just Joss.

As for other terrible creators/celebrities, the big ones that come to mind are Joss and Johnny Depp. I don't feel any moral compunction about engaging with Buffy, although I also don't feel the desire to anymore. I was never a big Johnny Depp fan growing up (I was an Orlando girl all the way) and really only cared about him in Pirates. Given that Pirates pre-dates so many revelations, I don't think I'd have much trouble rewatching it (and similarly, it helps that it's a movie that involved so many other people and not a book with just one author). I wouldn't want to see him in anything new, though, and I'd severely judge any production that hired him. Same with Mel Gibson. I wouldn't really feel compunctions watching movies from my childhood like The Patriot and Pocahontas (or in the latter's case, at least not compunctions about Mel lol), but fuck any production in the last two decades to hire him.

So as long as people are defending Her or giving her any money, I don't judge how people choose to engage or not with Harry Potter.

This is how I feel, and it bugs the shit out of me when book-tokkers or activists say that still engaging with HP make you Problematic TM. It's absurd to expect people to be able to shut off their feelings and ignore what (for some people) was a life-altering part of their lives. I can literally say that HP helped change my life because at the midnight bookstore party for OotP's release, I ran into an old classmate who had left my middle school, and I learned from them that it was possible to get a psychological transfer into a different school, which I ultimately did, which changed the course of my life and made me immeasurably happier. Saying "it's just a book" is a disservice to what HP meant to some people, and it also feels skeevy, like an Orwellian rewrite of history. HP was a global phenomenon the likes of which we'll probably never see again, and just because JKR is a monster now doesn't make it okay to try to rewrite the past and erase its significance. I think it's actually really important to acknowledge that she was radicalized and didn't always use to be this horrible, because if it can happen to her, it can happen to anyone (now I'm parroting a much more articulate Tumblr post I saw a few weeks ago).

That sucks so hard. Thank you for sharing your personal story. I don't have anything like your experience, but sometimes I think it's only a matter of time before I do--we know so much more about artists and their views now than we used to.

I think it's actually really important to acknowledge that she was radicalized and didn't always use to be this horrible, because if it can happen to her, it can happen to anyone

YES! This is such a good point.

I've had this tab open for a while (clearly!) because I was struggling with thoughts around the same topic (related to someone brought up here even, Whedon and Firefly). I found your post and the discussions helpful. It's not easy, and it seems like even if they can't give up on what a series or book meant to them, many people pay the cost in terms of tainted memories and enjoyment anyway.

I'm really glad you found the discussion helpful, even though I haven't come up with any clear answers. It's a very complicated thing, and I think we need to keep having thoughtful conversations about it instead of kneejerk judgement of how others deal with these things, as I've seen elsewhere.

it seems like even if they can't give up on what a series or book meant to them, many people pay the cost in terms of tainted memories and enjoyment anyway.

Absolutely. Which is so sad but also understandable!

I think we need to keep having thoughtful conversations about it instead of kneejerk judgement of how others deal with these things

<3

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Fannish Friday: creators and their creations

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