lirazel | Fannish Friday: Stuff That Doesn't Work For You

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Fannish Friday: Stuff That Doesn't Work For You

Tell me about a canon (in whatever media) that, looking at it on paper, should be your thing, but that just doesn't work for you for whatever reason.

I'm thinking of Word of Honor, the xianxia drama that swept through MDZS/Untamed fandom and sent everyone else into raptures. It's another m/m romance with an absolutely delightful female supporting character (I really do love Gu Xiang), a big cast, epic stakes, etc. Everyone else loved it. I...do not get it.

I found the main characters' motivations totally opaque. I watched more than half of the show, hoping we would learn what these people want and why, but we never did. The main romance was cute enough (and very well portrayed by the actors) but without knowing these people, how could I possibly care? There was a ton of plot, but I couldn't figure out how the plot connected to the characters' motivations. In this, it seems to me the opposite of The Untamed, where every single beat of the plot (with a few little exceptions) are driven by characters and their relationships to each other.

Perhaps my unfamiliarity with other kinds of Chinese storytelling and the larger xianxia genre hindered my understanding. That is entirely possible! When everyone whose opinions on art I share loves something and I don't, my instinct is to assume that the problem is with me.

But I tried so damn hard to love this show and I just couldn't. I ended up giving up on it and the only reason I sometimes feel a desire to give it another try is that writers I love have written (no doubt great) fic about it.

Another obvious example is Game of Thrones and ASoIaF in general. I love second world fantasy! I love fantasy that treats the genre like a series thing instead of just a lark! I love large casts of people who are cross-purposes! I love politics and intrigue! But I do not like either the books or the TV series. I think the worldbuilding is uninteresting and cliche, the cast is too large, and the politics and intrigue aren't done nearly as well as, like, actual YA fantasy series The Queen's Thief or even the better episodes of The West Wing. Compare it to something like, say, Seth Dickinson's Masquerade series? The results are embarrassing to me. Political intrigue, imo, is one of those things where it's pretty easy to evoke the aesthetics but very hard to actually do substantively and well. (I'm bad at it! I freely admit that!)

And like, that's a really harsh opinion and I know that lots of other people have found things in the series to love. I am happy for them! I don't think they're wrong! I just...don't like it. At all.

[eta] People have mentioned Terry Pratchett in the comments and OMG YES. I have tried! I really have! Almost everyone whose opinion I respect adores him! But I can't take the tonal silliness! I just can't care emotionally about things that don't take themselves at least somewhat seriously!

So anyway, those are a couple of mine answers, and I would love to hear about y'all's!

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*weeps softly*

I bounce off Guy Gavriel Kay, whose work should be absolute catnip for me, because his women invariably turn into walking vaginas about two-thirds of the way through and I don't believe in his fake religions for a single second. I WANT to love his books and yet I want to set them and myself on fire whenever I try to read one.

Oh, that's such a good answer! Yes, I get that. There's enough in his books that I do like that I can enjoy some of them quite a lot, but you are NOT wrong about his woman problem. And yeah, he has no interest in exploring religions deeply--they're just a backdrop for the stuff he is interested in.

I was so excited the first time I encountered his work and then it was such a disappointment.

I would have loved Game of Thrones except for all the extreme violence and rape. I knew after trying to read the books that I could not watch the show. But that kind of fantasy is one of my loves. Except this one for me was not going to work.

Absolutely!!!

I am stuck on the step of trying define what my thing is, lol. I bounce off or ignore lots of big fannish things, but I think that's usually less about execution and more about my weird taste. I guess I do have a big DNW to do with personal choice, especially in regards to medical care, which has made me have to nope out of otherwise interesting things recently. The most recent being Spider-Man 3, and also a tv drama about rich people - which I was super excited about, I love and miss OTT dramas about rich people! - which opened with an awkward euthanasia storyline for some reason.

Yeah, I'm definitely one of those people who cares more about quality of execution than about, like, tropes. I don't have any bulletproof reading kinks. It's all about how well everything is presented.

Very interesting! I wouldn't say many things are bulletproof for me necessarily, but my standard is definitely more "do I want to spend hours with these characters and this scenario" than anything else.

Harry Potter. Hunger Games. (Probably both an age thing.)

ASoIaF is not a surprise that it doesn't work for me (male gaze syndrome).

Vorkosigan should totally work for me but it....doesn't. Discworld should totally be my thing but I don't get the humour. (Sorry y'all...) Most of Neil Gaiman's things should work for me and I should be all over it but.......uh....... No.

I am not surprised actually that WoH doesn't work for you. I'm pretty lukewarm about the show myself, actually, I like to have a visual for the characters and for the fights an stuff, but I vastly prefer the novel. Where the story is somewhat different. And as for WoH, the last 6-10 episodes simply don't do anything for me. It's like...what....what?? It's....okay? And I do love Ye Baiyi. But. No.

Discworld should totally be my thing but I don't get the humour. (Sorry y'all...)

I get the humor, but I find it distracting instead of delightful. His ideas are good! The execution is so silly!

Most of Neil Gaiman's things should work for me and I should be all over it but.......uh....... No.

Oh, yes, me too. I think it says something that my favorite of his books is the one he wrote for middle schoolers.

Well I am glad I didn't stick around for the ending of WOH!

You know, the Neil Gaiman stuff is very funny. Because I don't get his stuff nor Pratchett's stuff.

But I love Good Omens! (Pretty much the only book by either of them that I do like.)

That is so interesting! The complicated chemistry of their interaction must work for you in a way the component parts don't! Art is so beautifully subjective I love it.

Terry Pratchett. On paper really should be my thing but we just don't get on.

THIS!!!

Everyone I've ever dated has loved Pratchett, I'm familiar with the universe and concepts. He comes off as too fond clever for me.

It's making me feel better that some of y'all aren't into him either!

OMG YES. Almost everyone whose opinions I respect adores him, but I just can't emotionally invest in something so silly.

I can't think of a series I bounced off hard for this, but I'm always surprised when an author who has worked well for me many other times suddenly *doesn't* for a book, like Catheryne M. Valente with Space Opera (I bounced so hard off of that one it was a slog to get through) and Naomi Novik with Spinning Silver (I may still try again). I bounce off a lot of scifi books because I think the execution falls short or I don't like the worldbuilding, but I also get suckered into so much other scifi that I know it's the specific delivery. It's a genre with a lot of variability, to be sure, but sometimes that can feel the most disconcerting because I picked up the book for a *reason*, y'know?

Yeah, I see that. It's all about execution for me, too, though probably the details of that execution vary from person to person (aka the things that bother me might not bother you and vice versa).

I ship Janine and Egon from Ghostbusters so much, I refuse to watch Ghostbusters 2.

Also I found out how both characters are written as jokes at the expense of proper character development. I headcanon Janine that she worked her way up from secretary to manager, and that by the 90s, she’s the CEO. So I’m just baffled that in the second movie, they didn’t focus on her character arc at all????

Yeah, a lot of movies have very different priorities than I do as a viewer. And I love Annie Potts!

I did see some gifs and screencaps of Annie Potts as Janine Melnitz in Ghostbusters 2. She looks like a completely different character from Janine in the first, original movie.
Maybe they tried to make her like the cartoon? But too cartoonish. 🙃

With that said, I’d imagine Janine has updated her professional wardrobe. Yes, she’d wear the business suits with the shoulder pads. And she’d have the big 80s hair, red gold curls specifically. Anyway, she’s managing hq/the firehouse. Business has expanded a lot since the first movie. Maybe her psychic senses kick in, which leads to next ghost that they have to catch.

The twist is that in the post credits scene, it’s revealed that Janine and Egon got married and have two kids. They all live in the renovated firehouse. Cue the shocked reaction from the audience. Credits roll, onward to the next movie in the 2000s lol

I bounce off a lot of popular YA fiction that the internet loves, but I don't find that especially surprising - I'm too old for them! I also find myself not especially enjoying the indie sad girl musician darlings, like Phoebe Bridgers and Mitski, who are also super popular with my age group.

- oh, you know what I really bounced off of? Gideon the Ninth. It's talked about like EVERY lesbian/bi woman must love it, but I just . . . didn't. You either really like that kind of humour or you don't, and I did not.

I am the same way about both YA and indie sad girl music. The former doesn't surprise me but the latter doesn't.

I haven't tried Gideon the Ninth yet (I'm waiting for the last book to be out in case I do want to read the whole thing) but I suspect I might be one of those very few people who don't like it. I will still try it! But I won't be surprised if I'm all, "Uh, nope!" about it.

I didn't like Gideon the Ninth either — the tone just really didn't work for me.

I love love love love Pratchett, but his fans can be really insufferable when people say they don't like him, and keep insisting that if someone just tries a different book, they will inevitably fall in love with his writing. My reaction to your comment was to immediately think, defensively, but he DOES take himself seriously in the Discworld books, and then roll my eyes at myself for being so defensive. People are allowed to not like things!

I said in response to another comment that Gideon the Ninth is probably my answer here, but actually while I was writing defensively about Discworld, another thing popped into my head: I absolutely loathe The Song of Achilles (to the point that I think I'm known as that person who always carries on about how much she hates The Song of Achilles).

I love mythology and fairytale retellings, but this one was recced to me repeatedly by people on Tumblr as being an Iliad retelling that 'did right by Briseis,' when in fact Briseis is essentially relegated to being a cheerleader for the Achilles/Patroclus relationship. If the book hadn't been sold to me on false premises, I probably never would have picked it up, but as it was I went into it expecting one thing, and reacted extremely badly to it being another — to the point that I won't read any other Madeline Miller books on principle!

but his fans can be really insufferable when people say they don't like him

Yeah, I can handle people being shocked by my not liking him, that's fine. What I dislike is the people who seem to imply that the only reason you might not like Pratchett is because you dislike his politics/worldview. Um, no, I think he has a wonderful view of the world! I don't like how he tells stories!

That's so interesting about SoA! I haven't read it, though I did read and enjoy Circe. Do you think if you had read it without someone giving you false expectations about Briseis, you might have just disliked the book instead of hating it?

Do you think if you had read it without someone giving you false expectations about Briseis, you might have just disliked the book instead of hating it?

To be honest, I probably wouldn't have even picked it up if someone hadn't painted it falsely as a Briseis-centric Iliad retelling, because I'm not hugely into Achilles/Patroclus as a relationship or either of the characters individually and don't deliberately seek it out. So without those misrepresented recs, Circe may have ended up being the first Miller book I picked up (because retellings of Greek myth focusing on female characters are very much my thing) and might have felt a lot more warmly towards her as an author!

Ah, what a shame!

I remember in the early days of Once Upon a Time, back before it went totally obviously off the rails, it was getting so much praise and I wanted to be into it because I was super into fairytale retellings and mashups at the time, but I was just like, “Does no one else see how cheesy and poorly written this is?? What is going on???!!!!!” I still followed the show for the first few years, but mostly just so I could keep up with the Swan Queen fanfic and pretty gifsets, which I found far superior!

Also, I yearn to love George Eliot’s books but I haven’t ever really been able to emotionally connect with them! Maybe someday?? (This was a real undergrad struggle for me in particular!)

AGREED!!!! I thought it was terrible! I still don't get the appeal!

Also, I yearn to love George Eliot’s books but I haven’t ever really been able to emotionally connect with them! Maybe someday??

I am the same way. I feel that when the time comes, I will vibe with Mary Anne! But I haven't yet!

In a way, aren't we all just waiting to vibe with Mary Anne?????

INDEED!

For things I've actually read: I dunno, I like Annalee Newitz as a person, I've enjoyed seeing them on panels, and the premises of Autonomous and Future of Another Timeline seem like they should be my jam, but I just wasn't feeling either? They just... didn't cohere for me. To the point where I'm just gonna pass on The Terraformers-- maybe someday I'll try Four Lost Cities, to see if I like them better as a nonfiction author.

For things I haven't even read: all the people I know who are fans of Ada Palmer's "Terra Ignota" series say I'd like it, but I just can't with the premise. I managed to make my way through I think a sample first chapter from Too Like the Lightning, and that only cemented this feeling. (And it's not primarily the gender stuff, though I do roll my eyes at that-- the whole deal with religion is so very based on a Christianity-centric idea of what "religion" is, and I know the series isn't really about that, but that just makes me madder that it lets that thinking stand without scathing critique.)

I understand the whole "I like this person and their view of the world, but their writing doesn't work for me." I will listen to or read any interview with Ted Chiang, but I don't like short stories! So I can't read his actual work!

I think a lot of us have had similar experiences of being told, "You'll love X!" but then learning about it and being like, "Nope nope nope!"

ooh, yeah, I loved Ada Palmer's history blog, so I was excited when I first heard she was publishing a novel but when I tried Too Like the Lightning I bounced off of it incredibly hard!

Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. I just didn't vibe with it. I watched the 2003 version back when it first came out and liked that okay but the more faithful adaptation just didn't do it for me. It doesn't help that it's hyped up as the best anime of all time and it's the only reason I finished it in the first place, only for me to realize I was mentally checked out for the majority of the episodes and can't really tell what happened even though I technically watched it in full.

It is so disconcerting when everyone else adores something and you're like, "Why????"

What a fascinating topic!

I have never read any Pratchett, and just never felt the urge to. Adore Good Omens, but not really clicking with anything else Gaiman? The Sandman (TV) seems like it should be perfect for me, but although I liked it well enough it was just another TV show, although a very good one and I love Morpheus. (I love Stardust the movie, but then the adaptation is v different from the book.)

What else... Our Flag Means Death is *thisclose*, but not quite there.

I'm being very picky here, focussing on the stuff that is so near, and yet it doesn't ping me THAT way. (Even if I enjoy watching it.)

The whole of the 13th Doctor's oeuvre (except for any episodes featuring the Master).

I'll be back to add to this list. *g*

I'm being very picky here, focussing on the stuff that is so near, and yet it doesn't ping me THAT way. (Even if I enjoy watching it.)

Yes, that's a very specific thing and even more frustrating than something that doesn't work for you at all!

Actually, speaking of something that doesn't work at all, then Sabrina (the new show from a few years ago) falls into that category? I mean, it started out as something intriguing and full of the kinda stuff that I like (symbolism and religious stuff etc), and I mostly liked everything - except Sabrina herself, whom I grew to loathe and despise. So I never watched past S2, which is sad because they had some good stuff going on (brilliant trans representation! Lots about the evils of blind faith), but I simply couldn't stomach her. :(

I have heard from multiple sources that Word of Honour is very pretty and very gay but not actually good television, so it does not surprise me that you couldn't love it! I never even bothered trying it.

I think there are a lot of things I should love and don't. This is How You Lose the Time War (lesbians and timey wimey stuff!), just about everything by Catherynne M Valente (engaging with fairy tales and mythology and what stories do and mean!), the Wayward Children series by Seanan McGuire (portal fantasies about where you do and don't fit in, about characters who are outsiders for various reasons!), the Winternight trilogy by Katherine Arden (every single thing about it SHOULD be my jam!).... I could continue. I think that the WAY a story is presented, the underlying approach the creator is taking, the way the creator understands the point of the narrative, can really affect the end result, even if the pieces all seem like they should be appealing.

The books and authors I just listed are all technically competent; they just fail to make me care, or occasionally make me outright angry at the story. Sometimes an idea can be compelling enough to me to make it worth reading despite bad writing, but good writing cannot save something for me if there is a fundamental mismatch between what me and the author are interested in a story doing.

Word of Honour is very pretty and very gay but not actually good television

That makes me feel better!

Your list is so good! (I actually outright hated the first Wayward Children book that I read, probably because I thought the premise was so good but I didn't like anything else about it.)

I think that the WAY a story is presented, the underlying approach the creator is taking, the way the creator understands the point of the narrative, can really affect the end result, even if the pieces all seem like they should be appealing.

YES. And a lot of that is, like, very nebulous in a way that makes it difficult to describe.

but good writing cannot save something for me if there is a fundamental mismatch between what me and the author are interested in a story doing.

Exactly!!!

Discworld, like some other ppl have mentioned. I like Pratchett fine (I enjoyed both Nation and Good Omens) but none of the Discworld books I've read got more than a "this is fine but not mindblowing" response. Same with The Wayward Children series by Seanan McGuire, and Murderbot--they were mostly fine and I didn't have any major issues with them (well, I guess I was pretty dissatisfied with the mystery in the first Wayward Children book), they just didn't click with me.

I'm so glad I asked this question, because people are naming so many things I also didn't click with that I thought everyone clicked with!!!!

The entire medium of TV, honestly. The last time I successfully watched a TV show from start to finish was Yuri!!! on ICE, years ago. Before that… ATLA? As a pre-teen? There are so many good concepts out there that everyone loves, and which sound so completely up my alley, but I just CANNOT keep my attention span going, even if I actually manage to watch a few episodes and really enjoy them.

Some of it might be barrier to entry -- cost, having a TV, figuring out where to watch the dang thing -- but I think some of it is just attention span. TV shows are SO LONG. Each episode is so long! I could read many books in the time it takes me to watch even one limited series!

Oh, that is SO interesting! I wasn't thinking about mediums at all, but I definitely have my own that don't work for me (animation generally speaking, graphic novels, etc.).

I could read many books in the time it takes me to watch even one limited series!

This is charming!

Do you enjoy movies?

I do enjoy movies, though Covid really put the brakes on my movie-watching habits. In general, I see movies when I have other people to see them with.

Ah, I get that. I watch a lot less movies now than I did when I was a student/young adult and had people to watch them with. I think movies are definitely more of a communal medium than TV is.

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Fannish Friday: Stuff That Doesn't Work For You

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Lol what is this

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