lirazel | what fic is for

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fandom is my boyfriend

what fic is for

There's been quite a bit of discussion over the years about whether a fanfic can be the kind that can have its serial numbers filed off and still be a good fanfic. I have a range of different feelings about that (mostly leaning towards the "if you can file the serial numbers off, it might have been a really good story, but it probably wasn't all that great of a fanfic, because fanfic imo should deal explicitly with the specificities of canon"), but I want to come at the "fanfic is different than original fic" from a bit of a different angle.

I've been thinking a lot about how what I want from canon and what I want from a piece of fanfiction are often very, very different. And how many things I desperately want to read about in fic...would not work in canon.

For example, one of my favorite movies, The Vast of Night, has a very specific ending that, imo, makes the entire thing work. If it didn't end that way, the film would be significantly lesser.

And yet I wrote fix-it fic! For a film that worked perfectly as it was! Because while I would not change the film's ending for anything, I also love to explore other possibilities. I got great joy out of imagining another ending, and apparently other people who watched the film did too.

The same goes for the recent film Prey. A certain Big Significant Thing happens, and it absolutely works with the film. The structure of that film, the call-backs and parallels, are so good! I'm so glad it did what it did! But also, my heart calls out for some fix-it fic!

Often, the joy of a specific work of fanfic arises from knowing that it didn't happen in canon. If it had happened in canon, it would be less enjoyable. If it had happened in canon, I would love canon less. There are just so many things I want to happen in fic that I do not want to happen in canon!

And to me, this is why canon divergence is my favorite genre by far. There is nothing I love exploring more than all the other ways the story could have gone. This is one reason I'm a multi-shipper and also get so frustrated with the kind of shipping that insists its pairing needs to be endgame.

I am ridiculously happy that Wei Wuxian/Lan Wangji is endgame on CQL. Nothing else would work. That is the story. And it is one of my all-time favorite pairings in any medium. But I am also so happy to read Wei Wuxian/Jiang Cheng fic or Wei Wuxian/Wen Qing fic (when you can find some good stuff, which is really rare). Obviously I'm a Buffy/Spike fan primarily, but I absolutely adore Spike/Dru and also think that Buffy/Faith is in some ways the superior ship. (Also still holding out for a Buffy/Gunn fic.)

I just lovelovelove the way fanfic lets us explore all the different ways canon could have been. And sometimes I do wish that canon had been more like fanfic, because I think the writers made a seriously bad writing choice. But so often, I am so happy with canon and thrilled that I also get fanfic too.

Fanfic is fanfic because it's in conversation with canon. Sometimes that conversation is, "You really screwed up, canon!" and sometimes it's "Let's dig a little bit deeper into a thing canon didn't have time for." But the conversation has to be explicit in a way that original fiction, while it is also in conversation with...literature as a whole (and often specific other works), just doesn't. I love that conversation. That conversation is fandom (whether it takes the form of vids or meta or fanart or shit posts or arguments about interpretation) and my theory is that the difference between people who are drawn to fandom and people who are not, is that fannish people (whether they ever discover fandom or not) are hungry for that conversation, whereas non-fannish people just...don't react to stories that way. Even some people who love stories very much don't react to them in that way. My mom loves to read as much as I do, but I don't think she would ever, ever feel that fannish hunger.

And I don't understand people who experience fiction in that different way (I will never, ever understand how someone can watch a whole movie and not know the characters' names at the end. Were you paying attention at all????) but I don't think my way of experiencing it is better, really. I'm just glad I experience it the way I do and that I have fandom to experience it that way with me.

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❤ fandom

There's actually a Reylo fic with a publishing deal where I honestly am not sure how the author filed the serial numbers off. But they must have done so effectively, if someone is willing to print it! It was fairly lore entwined, very much a Star Wars fic. So apparently anything can have the serial numbers filed off if you're willing to invent fantasy countries and an entire new magic system that totally doesn't involve lightsabers to do it, and I am fascinated by that compared to how we usually think of the concept.

I'm thinking over your conversation thing, because that's true in a literal "is about canon and therefore is conversing with it" sense but idk. There's times when I'm writing to engage with canon in a "what about" way, and times where I just want to leverage the things I like about canon to roll around in highly unlikely scenarios that would have no business being near canon. And in those cases I think I'm way more in conversation with other fanfiction. But now I feel like I'm probably splitting hairs! It's an interesting topic.

times where I just want to leverage the things I like about canon to roll around in highly unlikely scenarios that would have no business being near canon. And in those cases I think I'm way more in conversation with other fanfiction.

I saw a similar conversation on Tumblr about this very topic, and yes! I like this point a lot.

And thinking about this some more, I sometimes write fanfic in conversation with/in response to fandom rather than canon.

Yeah, definitely! To me that seems like an extension, though, because that fannish conversation developed because people kept reacting to other people who were reacting to fandom. It's a living organism!

It's incredible how many Reylo authors have publishing deals. I don't understand why that fandom specifically has gotten so many! Maybe some editor somewhere is a Reylo and started seeking people out?

There's times when I'm writing to engage with canon in a "what about" way, and times where I just want to leverage the things I like about canon to roll around in highly unlikely scenarios that would have no business being near canon. And in those cases I think I'm way more in conversation with other fanfiction

To me, this is still very much the kind of discursive rabbit-trail that really good conversations have anyway! I mean, you wouldn't be conversing with other fanfic if that fanfic hadn't been in conversation with canon originally. Sometimes things just go far afield! So I would not count that as a different thing altogether, but good for you if you want to!

I think it's largely a numbers thing at this point. There are 30k Reylo fics, more on Wattpad, and a few of them have to be good enough to publish. Plus, a dynamic (and gender combination) that's already popular in published works.

I'm thinking about things like omegaverse, which are a sort of giant shared universe spanning all our million fandoms at this point. Apparently the original fic was sort of engaging with Dark Angel, but I don't know if that means we're all in conversation with Dark Angel? Hmm, will have to think about this some more.

It's got to be more about the dynamic and gender thing than the numbers, since there are more Wangxian fics (and presumably WAY more for pairings in megafandoms like MCU or SPN) on AO3.

I'm thinking about things like omegaverse, which are a sort of giant shared universe spanning all our million fandoms at this point.

True! There's soooooooooooo much omegaverse fic. (I don't tend to be super crazy about it, but one of my favorite writers is currently doing a project where she writes every possible combination of Wangxian a/b/o and she's so good and doing such interesting things with it, that it's very much on my brain right now.)

Apparently the original fic was sort of engaging with Dark Angel, but I don't know if that means we're all in conversation with Dark Angel?

I didn't know that! I just knew that it became a big thing via SPN fandom.

Yep, I was mainly saying that I think there are enough total fics for the multiple publishings to be mostly coincidence. If the question is more why Reylo over Stucky then yeah, gender is the huge looming factor there. :( Hopefully some of those authors are at least getting paid over on m/m Amazon.

I don't think it's JUST a gender thing, because iirc there are a number of One Direction fics that have been pro-published. It's true though that the mainstream market for het romance is much, much larger than for m/m.

On another note, I have good news for you on the Buffy/Gunn front.

Aww, thank you! I should have been more specific--I need someone long and slow-burn-y about them that really takes the time to establish who they would be together, which is not something I think I'm ever going to find. But I love that there are people who have written shorter things about them!

Ooh yes I love your thoughts here and I totally agree with you on all of it!

(I will never, ever understand how someone can watch a whole movie and not know the characters' names at the end. Were you paying attention at all????)

..... *raises hand* I just have a terrible memory for names! sometimes I write book reviews without using a single character name because they disappeared from my mind instantly, even while I have a lot of very strong feelings about the book! It's a problem, lol.

Oh, that's different, though! If you are bad with names generally, that makes sense! But my sister, who is not bad with names, just...doesn't care enough about whatever movie she's watching (even if she likes it????) to remember names, and it BAFFLES me.

oh BAFFLING INDEED

This was super interesting! I am similar in that I sometimes want one thing from canon and one from fic, but sometimes it can all blur together a bit, depending on the canon. Sometimes, something exists or happens in canon and this is a big part of why I love it, so I want more of it in fic (like JS&MN or "Piranesi" or "The Invisible Cities", where I always want more of these universes). Or for example, with happy endings, where I want more of them and how the characters live afterwards, and so on--like an extension of canon. And sometimes, I want something that the canon doesn't have, and explore other+different possibilities, with fix-its (especially for canons with sad endings), or other canon divergences, because "all the other ways the story could have gone" is also one of my favourite things!

Fanfic is fanfic because it's in conversation with canon.

This, exactly! It's one of my favourite things about it, because that conversation can have so many sides and happen in so many ways! Sometimes it's a more contemplative/thought-provoking thing, sometimes it's therapeutic, comforting or cathartic, and sometimes it's a creative/aesthetic thing, depending on the canon and my relationship to it. I really agree with your point about some of us being hungry for that conversation and needing to have it, as opposed to people who don't. Like you said, no way of engaging with a fictional universe is better, but this one is good for me too, and I'm also glad to have it! <3

Or for example, with happy endings, where I want more of them and how the characters live afterwards, and so on--like an extension of canon.

Sure! I've written quite a number of these myself! And they're great! But for me as an individual, if fanfic was only missing scenes or extensions of canon, I would not be nearly as enthralled by it as I am, because the canon divergence stuff is what gets me in my soul!

It's one of my favourite things about it, because that conversation can have so many sides and happen in so many ways! Sometimes it's a more contemplative/thought-provoking thing, sometimes it's therapeutic, comforting or cathartic, and sometimes it's a creative/aesthetic thing, depending on the canon and my relationship to it.

Yeah! Or just profoundly silly!

I've been pondering this today -- thanks for the brain prompt! -- and I think for me, fanfic is simply for more time with the characters because if I really love them, I always want more of them! The flavor of "more" kinda varies -- like, if it's a show that really frustrates me but some characters compel me, I want to see them in a better version of canon, whereas in a canon that I really like, I just want more time with them much in the style of what it would be like to watch an extra episode or scene or read an extra chapter. But yeah, this is totally why transforming fanfic into original fic doesn't sit well with me. Their souls are supposed to be specific characters' souls!!! (I'm normal.)

fanfic is simply for more time with the characters because if I really love them, I always want more of them!

Yeah, I think this is the case for a lot of people! Though certainly not all, judging by how many people write OCs.

like, if it's a show that really frustrates me but some characters compel me, I want to see them in a better version of canon, whereas in a canon that I really like, I just want more time with them much in the style of what it would be like to watch an extra episode or scene or read an extra chapter.

Yeah, that makes total sense!

Their souls are supposed to be specific characters' souls!!! (I'm normal.)

CORRECT.

It's an interesting question for sure! The distinction you implicitly draw between "good" fanfic vs just fanfic seems to be doing a lot of work here.

I agree with you that, "Fanfic is fanfic because it's in conversation with canon." I would add, though that fanfic is also fanfic because it's made on a non-profit model in the context of modern copyright law, usually in community. (So UKLG's Lavinia is not fanfic, and neither is The Aeneid.) So I'd say a completely OOC coffeeshop AU that could easily be de-serial numbered (not to say it could or would be professionally published, though) is absolutely still fanfic because it was made under those conditions. Is it good fic, though? I think you'd say no; while I'd say it's too dependent on too many variables -- and too subjective -- to decide from only this information.

The distinction you implicitly draw between "good" fanfic vs just fanfic seems to be doing a lot of work here.

Oh definitely. That was just an aside about my own personal perspective. I'm certainly not going to argue with anyone who disagrees. I just know that when it comes to fanfiction which is so lightly tethered to canon as to make it easy to file off the serial numbers, I find it deeply unsatisfying as fanfiction, while I might quite like as an original work. I'm thinking specifically here about, say, MDZS/CQL fic which are not only rule 63, but also modern AUs. At that point, when you've changed both the gender and the setting...how is this even a story about WWX and LWJ anymore? Though I enjoy some of those stories if I can read them as original fiction.

I would add, though that fanfic is also fanfic because it's made on a non-profit model in the context of modern copyright law, usually in community. (So UKLG's Lavinia is not fanfic, and neither is The Aeneid.)

Yes, definitely.

But I'm truly not interested in pinning down a set definition of fanfiction that would apply to anyone else but me. For me, I need it to be in conversation with canon, however loosely, or I find it unsatisfying.

There's been quite a bit of discussion over the years about whether a fanfic can be the kind that can have its serial numbers filed off and still be a good fanfic.
As someone who is doing this exact thing, this is an interesting question. Although the fic in question was an offshot of an AU 'verse, dealing mostly with OCs, so the 'fic' label was mostly there because of the wider setting within the Doctor Who 'verse and the occasional canon character dropping in.

Yanking it out of Doctor Who just meant removing everything about aliens (which was only tangential anyway) and focussing on the characters and their story. It's basically a Coming Out story, and I defy anyone to figure out that it was fic to begin with, if I ever get round to finishing it & getting it published.

Anyway, love the post and trying to dig into what fic is for.

I love that conversation. That conversation is fandom (whether it takes the form of vids or meta or fanart or shit posts or arguments about interpretation) and my theory is that the difference between people who are drawn to fandom and people who are not, is that fannish people (whether they ever discover fandom or not) are hungry for that conversation, whereas non-fannish people just...don't react to stories that way.
^this. And I think it also depends on the story? There are very few shows that hit me Like That, and where I need that conversation. Most I just appreciate, or sit alongside, but I don't have that impulse to interrogate. (I tend to think of it as falling in love - that all-consuming need to know everything about the other.)

The weirdest thing (I have found) is reading fic for something that I'm not fannish about. Because it just doesn't work the same way at all - it's just a story, but it doesn't do The Thing that fic does when you are obsessed with the source. (I really hope this makes sense!)

Yanking it out of Doctor Who just meant removing everything about aliens (which was only tangential anyway) and focussing on the characters and their story. It's basically a Coming Out story, and I defy anyone to figure out that it was fic to begin with, if I ever get round to finishing it & getting it published.

This is so interesting! And not something I'm drawn to writing myself. If the aliens & stuff could be removed easily, what, to you, was the appeal of setting it in the Doctor Who universe instead of just writing an original piece to begin with? (This question implies no judgment whatsoever! I'm just curious! Because it's not how I think!)

There are very few shows that hit me Like That, and where I need that conversation. Most I just appreciate, or sit alongside, but I don't have that impulse to interrogate. (I tend to think of it as falling in love - that all-consuming need to know everything about the other.)

I probably have this happen to me more often than other people do, but yes, there are absolutely stories that I'm like, "Well, that was good/fine/bad," and move right on. But I feel like I'm always looking for the stories that hook me and don't let me go. Like, that hunger really drives me!

The weirdest thing (I have found) is reading fic for something that I'm not fannish about. Because it just doesn't work the same way at all - it's just a story, but it doesn't do The Thing that fic does when you are obsessed with the source. (I really hope this makes sense!)

It absolutely does! I know exactly what you mean and totally agree!

If the aliens & stuff could be removed easily, what, to you, was the appeal of setting it in the Doctor Who universe instead of just writing an original piece to begin with? (This question implies no judgment whatsoever! I'm just curious! Because it's not how I think!)
Oh don't worry, you are giving me an opportunity to talk about one of my favourite topics! *g*

So - the whole AU Doctor Who verse started off with a 500 word ficlet, because I was curious what would happen if the Master (and his wife) had a baby - how would it affect dynamic between the Master and the Doctor (you probably know this via fannish osmosis, but they are 'Best Enemies'). Very chewy subject, and the stories grew.

THEN the child became a character in his own right, a proper OC with his own personality and flaws and issues and strengths (and who DIDN'T like being fought over) and the stories began centering him (Alex).

Now. He acquired two best (human, childhood) friends, which also became proper OCs. One of them, Josh, later comes out as bi/pan - just kinda mentioned in passing - and I began to wonder who his first boyfriend might be. Josh is very good-looking and charming, and often mistaken for just a pretty face, but has a lot more depth to him. So, I realised that he'd surprise everyone with his choice of boyfriend - enter George! Quiet computer nerd, waaaay back in the closet. And lo and behold, George then demanded a whole story written about him...

So, it's fic only in the sense of Five Degrees of Kevin Bacon. It was set within that world because George came about because of Josh who came about because of Alex who came about because it poked at all the most fascinating, complicated parts of my OTP. It was never posted on AO3 or... anywhere public really, because it was such a niche story. However that helped when I decided that George deserved his own story. The main part was to re-imagine Alex (which I'd done already for aNOtHER OC who decided he needed his own story, although he was never fic, that's just where he originated).

ANYWAY, if you would like to read about George, do let me know, I would be THRILLED to share! (I can hear you backing away, it's fine.) I'm like 85% done, I just need to hammer out the ending properly (because a novel needs more attention than fic posted on a filter). This is Book 1. I have 2 and 3 mostly written out also. (Hi, my name is Elisi, I write WAY WAY TOO MUCH OMG.)

But I feel like I'm always looking for the stories that hook me and don't let me go. Like, that hunger really drives me!
See there are so many things I love (Russian Doll, Derry Girls, The Umbrella Academy etc) but that just don't tip over into that place, and there's nothing I can do, which makes me sad, because I would love to fall down another rabbit hole. But no. :(

It absolutely does! I know exactly what you mean and totally agree!
Oh good! \o/

Edited 2022-10-12 17:27 (UTC)

(you probably know this via fannish osmosis, but they are 'Best Enemies')

I actually watched the show from the beginning of the reboot till the end of the Pond era!

I so enjoy reading about how one thing just led to another! This is how both brains and creativity work!

I actually would be very interested in reading the book eventually!

See there are so many things I love (Russian Doll, Derry Girls, The Umbrella Academy etc) but that just don't tip over into that place, and there's nothing I can do, which makes me sad, because I would love to fall down another rabbit hole. But no. :(

Oh, same. I have lots like this.

I actually watched the show from the beginning of the reboot till the end of the Pond era!
I couldn't remember! /o\ But you'll know what I am talking about then. *g*

I so enjoy reading about how one thing just led to another! This is how both brains and creativity work!
Oh good, because writing it out it just feels like an endless game of Kevin Bacon... That said, it's incredibly rewarding - and if I had never written fanfic I would not now be writing original stories. :)

I actually would be very interested in reading the book eventually!
You can read it now and give me feedback! *looks hopeful* (You are free to ignore me.)

:D

That said, it's incredibly rewarding - and if I had never written fanfic I would not now be writing original stories. :)

I love that!

I am super busy atm with fics I need to finish before deadlines, but I am interested in reading it when life slows down a bit! <3

I love that!
This verse was literally the one that first spawned OCs that were proper 3 dimensional people, it was amazing!

I am super busy atm with fics I need to finish before deadlines, but I am interested in reading it when life slows down a bit! <3
No worries AT ALL, I very much hear ya so just let me know if/when things calm down. You sound plenty busy generally, so I wasn't expecting anything. <3

I really do want to read my friends' original fiction! I've got several of Dollsome's that I really want to read! I've just got to find the time!

If you magically find out how to find more time, pleases share!

I will never stop searching for that magic spell!

"But the conversation has to be explicit in a way that original fiction, while it is also in conversation with...literature as a whole (and often specific other works), just doesn't."

Well, there's such a thing as litfic. This is litfic. And so is this.

I've been studying Golden Age SF, and it's amazing how the authors were bouncing ideas off each other and borrowing from each other, sometimes in a quite blatant manner. Fanfic does this a lot too; somebody will come up with a great idea, and other writers will pick up on the idea and run with it. So I think the contrast you're making - between conversations in fanfic and conversations in profic - is a bit too strong for me. There's an area of overlap.

I'm rather unconventional: I came into fanfic because of the tropes, and while I've liked certain fanfic because it hit my trope buttons, I'm also perfectly happy to see those tropes in originalfic and profic. I mean, some profic is incredibly tropish, to the point where I feel as though I'm in an alternate universe where profic is being published at AO3.

Because I'm a fannish butterfly, flitting from fandom to fandom, I'm actually not very fond of fics where you have to know the canon in order to understand the story. Certainly knowing the canon can deepen one's understanding of certain fics, in the same way that knowing eighteenth-century history can deepen one's understanding of a historical novel set in the eighteenth century. But if I have to know the canon in order to read the story, I'm likely to give the story a pass. Because of this, I tend to read a lot of AUs.

Well, there's such a thing as litfic. This is litfic. And so is this.

Hmm...I agree there is such a thing as litfic! I am not sure that I agree that AO3 Jane Austen fics are litfic and not fanfiction. Or maybe they're both? But writing for an AO3 audience (or an LJ audience, or a ff.net audience) seems, to me, different somehow than Jean Rhys writing Wide Sargasso Sea. WSS is definitely in conversation with Jane Eyre in a particular way, but the intention of writing it seems different than if I wrote a Jane Eyre fanfic for a fannish audience--and not just because of the publishing/not publishing aspect!

I've been studying Golden Age SF, and it's amazing how the authors were bouncing ideas off each other and borrowing from each other, sometimes in a quite blatant manner. Fanfic does this a lot too; somebody will come up with a great idea, and other writers will pick up on the idea and run with it. So I think the contrast you're making - between conversations in fanfic and conversations in profic - is a bit too strong for me. There's an area of overlap.

I loooooooooove this about Golden Age SF!!!! And I agree that there is an overlap.

I'm rather unconventional: I came into fanfic because of the tropes

Oh, wow, this is so interesting! I actually think there are quite a lot of people who are similar, but they don't tend to be the people I spend most time with in fandom. I am drawn to the conversations that arise from the "this particular canon ate my brain!" (whether for good or ill! Sometimes fannish conversation arises over frustration with the source material, not love! Or, perhaps most often, a mixture of both!) reaction.

So I'm assuming you read fics for canons you're not familiar with? I would have no interest in doing this--if I want to read something that isn't in direct conversation with a canon, I'll just go read published fic. But then, while I like some tropes a lot, I care way more about the execution of the story the trope is in than in the trope itself. I recently read a book with a premise based around what I thought was one of my bulletproof tropes, and it didn't work for me at all, even though it definitely delivered on the trope side!

I'm actually not very fond of fics where you have to know the canon in order to understand the story. But if I have to know the canon in order to read the story, I'm likely to give the story a pass. Because of this, I tend to read a lot of AUs.

The exact opposite of me! This is so fascinating! I'm really glad you chimed in because I love hearing about people who approach fandom in a completely different way than I do!

"I agree there is such a thing as litfic! I am not sure that I agree that AO3 Jane Austen fics are litfic and not fanfiction."

Whoops, I'm sorry - I was being overly technical in my terms there. I mean "litfic" in the fannnish sense - fanfic inspired by literature, as opposed to other media.

"But writing for an AO3 audience (or an LJ audience, or a ff.net audience) seems, to me, different somehow than Jean Rhys writing Wide Sargasso Sea."

I'm definitely with you on the difference between most most fandom fiction vs. most published fiction. But that's not always a fan fiction vs. original fiction issue, is it? It can be a fanfic/originalfic vs. published fiction issue. You can see this most clearly in the LGBT romance genre, which was founded largely by fanfic writers and still carries heavy echoes of fandom within it. For that matter, fandom carries heavy echoes of the SFF genre, which it grew out of. :)

"I am drawn to the conversations that arise from the 'this particular canon ate my brain!'"

I can do this too! I shouldn't have given the impression that I only read fanfic for the tropes. In fact, if I find myself in a fandom it turns out I like, I'm liable to gobble up the canon. And there will be cases where I say, "There are no more Lymond novels being published! Awww! . . . Okay, let's see what's at AO3."

"So I'm assuming you read fics for canons you're not familiar with?"

Yes, when I must. I'd rather be familiar with the canon. Reason #1 for entering into an unfamiliar canon:

I want to read about a particular trope. For example, back in the day, I was in the Phantom Menace fandom, which is filled to the brim with mentor fics, but sometimes I wanted to read something other than the two zillionth Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan story.

Back in those days, it was a lot less easier than it is now to track down published fiction on particular topics. (Not that it's entirely easy now, but at least there are topical Goodreads lists.) So if I wanted to read a mentoring story, and I didn't want to read yet another Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan story, I'd visit the multifandom mentorfics Yahoo Group and pick out a story.

I was doing my darnedest to identify mentoring fandoms so that I wouldn't have to keep bouncing from fandom to fandom. I finally found Harry Potter. But in the meantime, I was trying out various fandoms.

Reason #2 for doing this:

Just try to find professionally published gay SFF novels back in 2002.

(They were there, but they were deeply, deeply buried. I attended one World Fantasy Convention panel in which an author said that she had it in her contract that the publisher wouldn't indicate the main characters of her series were gay, through either the blurbs or the covers. It could have killed her career if she'd been stereotyped back then as a an author of gay fiction. These days, her books are doing very well in the LGBT sections of online bookstores; I'm sure she's delighted.)

My reading needs tended to be more specific than that. After years of trying to chase down certain topics and tropes in profic, I found that it was much less exhausting to do so in fandom (and here I'm referring both to fanfic and to originalfic within fandom). This was especially the case after AO3 came along. I didn't have to search (for example) for hints in book blurbs that this was a novel about two men in a prison who started off as enemies and then became friends and then lovers. I just did a search on "Prison" and "Enemies to Friends to Lovers" at AO3, confine the search to AUs, and ta da! Thirty-seven stories to check out.

Reason #3 for doing this:

I adore the writing of a certain fanfic writer, but I haven't read most of the fandoms they write in. I'll try out their other fandoms.

"I recently read a book with a premise based around what I thought was one of my bulletproof tropes, and it didn't work for me at all, even though it definitely delivered on the trope side!"

That's so horribly frustrating when that happens, isn't it? Finding the right mix of trope and execution can be so difficult.

"I love hearing about people who approach fandom in a completely different way than I do!"

Ditto!

I was being overly technical in my terms there. I mean "litfic" in the fannnish sense - fanfic inspired by literature, as opposed to other media.

Ah, yes, I see!

But that's not always a fan fiction vs. original fiction issue, is it? It can be a fanfic/originalfic vs. published fiction issue. You can see this most clearly in the LGBT romance genre, which was founded largely by fanfic writers and still carries heavy echoes of fandom within it. For that matter, fandom carries heavy echoes of the SFF genre, which it grew out of. :)

True! Nuances!

So if I wanted to read a mentoring story, and I didn't want to read yet another Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan story, I'd visit the multifandom mentorfics Yahoo Group and pick out a story.

I was doing my darnedest to identify mentoring fandoms so that I wouldn't have to keep bouncing from fandom to fandom. I finally found Harry Potter. But in the meantime, I was trying out various fandoms.

I see! This is so interesting!

Just try to find professionally published gay SFF novels back in 2002.

Oh, absolutely.

My reading needs tended to be more specific than that. After years of trying to chase down certain topics and tropes in profic, I found that it was much less exhausting to do so in fandom (and here I'm referring both to fanfic and to originalfic within fandom). This was especially the case after AO3 came along. I didn't have to search (for example) for hints in book blurbs that this was a novel about two men in a prison who started off as enemies and then became friends and then lovers. I just did a search on "Prison" and "Enemies to Friends to Lovers" at AO3, confine the search to AUs, and ta da!

This makes a ton of sense!

I adore the writing of a certain fanfic writer, but I haven't read most of the fandoms they write in. I'll try out their other fandoms.

So does this!

Thank you for sharing all your thoughts on this--I really appreciate it!

Thanks for listening so patiently to me!

No problem! I love talking about people's different fandom experiences!

This is really interesting! I love the "What if"s that fanfic gets to explore. Often, I don't want them to be canon, ever. I can't remember which fandom it was, a very long time ago, where my ship got made canon and it was... such a disappointment. The fic had been "better" in that without having to worry about viewer ratings or genre conventions, it could explore so much more and so many more possibilities. The ship becoming canon froze a lot of those interpretations and that was a bit sad. I missed the freedom.

Another favourite type of fic is the exploration of the quiet moments, or the trauma that can't be shown in an action series because it's just not what the genre is about or what story canon wants to tell. Sometimes, even as I'm watching a movie I find myself noticing those missing spaces and thinking "oh, I hope there is fic for that moment when I get home!" but I don't expect nor necessarily want the canon tone to shift in that direction.

Often, the joy of a specific work of fanfic arises from knowing that it didn't happen in canon. If it had happened in canon, it would be less enjoyable. If it had happened in canon, I would love canon less. There are just so many things I want to happen in fic that I do not want to happen in canon!

...I probably could have made this shorter by saying "YES!! Hard agree!" :D

Often, I don't want them to be canon, ever.

Yes!

I can't remember which fandom it was, a very long time ago, where my ship got made canon and it was... such a disappointment. The fic had been "better" in that without having to worry about viewer ratings or genre conventions, it could explore so much more and so many more possibilities. The ship becoming canon froze a lot of those interpretations and that was a bit sad. I missed the freedom.

I don't know that I can think of an example like this one, but I can easily imagine what a disappointing canon experience of a ship you've loved fannishly would look like!

Another favourite type of fic is the exploration of the quiet moments, or the trauma that can't be shown in an action series because it's just not what the genre is about or what story canon wants to tell.

Indeed!

I think of fix-it fic and canon divergence as two travellers on the same road, in a way. I love canon divergence for exploring all the nuances of canon (including missing moments) that could have gone differently, but for me, fix-it fic is a specific type of canon divergence that says "nope! needs to be different! hurts too much!" for cases where - even when the canon ending can be satisfying in its own way - leaving it as-is precludes exploring the story further. That's where I think of your (incredible) The Vast of Night fic as more canon divergence, just a canon point that picks up after the movie has ended.

I will never, ever understand how someone can watch a whole movie and not know the characters' names at the end. Were you paying attention at all????

This is more likely to happen to me with foreign-language films but I think it's pretty self-explanatory: I'm trying to follow the story so much in another language that sometimes details like names are difficult to track. This happens to me (even still) with Portrait of a Lady on Fire. I always know who the characters are though!

I like your distinctions a lot!

That's where I think of your (incredible) The Vast of Night fic as more canon divergence, just a canon point that picks up after the movie has ended.

Ah! I like this! (And thank you!)

That's such a good point about foreign language films! I do the same--it's harder for me to remember the names in a kdrama than in an English-language show. The names themselves are foreign enough that they don't "snag" my memory the way more familiar ones do.

I think a lot about how my favourite canons are great at building up tension and withholding catharsis, such that when it gets to the end, there is only one way to release it. Whereas fanfic is so good at releasing the tension already built up by canon (do these two people kiss/reconcile/split, what if plot thing 1 didn't happen but plot thing 2 instead), and can do so, so many innumerable ways.

I love your point about origfic engaging with tropes/fanfic engaging with canon, because it's so true. I think a lot of the time (for the serial numbers filed off romance authors), just like tropes of a certain genre become a sort of 'comfort familiarity read', the rules of a fanfic's original canon becomes the fanfic's established trope rules, so it's just an engagement at a step back. To use CQL/MDZS as an example, total modern AU MDZS almost guarantees a WWX/WQ friendship (or romance), or an M-F relationship as its trope. It's like a secondary or more distant relationship, if that makes sense, not necessarily applying a trope to a relationship, but applying canon relationships to tropes and changing them a little.

Oh, interesting! I hadn't thought about that, but I see what you're saying re: catharsis!

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