lirazel | Two questions

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Two questions

1. What happens to potentials after they age out? Once they are old enough that they know they won't be called, what do they do? From what we see of Kendra, they've been raised to deny their emotions and not to know how to relate to the larger world. It's all dutydutyduty. How do they ever acclimate themselves to the rest of the world? I can imagine some of them becoming Watchers--Lydia, for example, could have been a potential at one time. But obviously they can't all go into that line of work.

Also, as a sort of corollary to that question, from what I can tell, the WC does a really bad job of finding all the potentials, since Buffy, Faith, Rona, Chao-Ahn, and aaaaalll those girls who were empowered by Willow's spell in "Chosen" had no contact with the WC. And was Giles trying to actively find little baseball girl and the girl in the trailer and all the other girls who became Slayers that day? If they're just going about their business, wouldn't the First have been after them?

Any thoughts?

2. I'm going to ramble a bit about this here because I don't want to get into another fight on whedonesque.

So there's this discussion about whether Angel was a better show than Buffy (it wasn't, but I'm not going to argue with someone over their own taste ;) ). What I'm finding really fascinating about the discussion is that the guys in the thread are all saying they liked Angel better because there are more strong male characters to relate to.

I think the main reason I'm finding it so interesting is because Joss has specifically said that he wanted men to be able to relate to Buffy. He talks in the Equality Now speech about how he wants men to find things to relate to in a woman's story, things they might not be comfortable embracing otherwise.

Besides, as a woman, I've been inundated with male stories from birth, and I have zero problem relating to men. For instance, Spike is the character I most relate to out of the whole universe (even if Buffy's my favorite, I don't start relating to her at all until her commitment to protecting her sister and her struggles with clinical depression in the later seasons. Early-seasons!Buffy and I have nothing in common). Any given book in lit class or any show that I watch, it's a toss-up whether it'll be a woman character or a man who I most relate to. I mean, favorite literary character ever? Quentin Compson. I have nothing in common with Caddy.

I've always found it endlessly fascinating that women can always relate to male characters but men can't relate to women. It's all about the ways in which our culture privileges male stories and marginalizes female ones. I definitely plan on making a commitment to having my sons read/watch stories from the female perspective so that they can learn to relate. There are tons of awesome young adult books out there with girls as heroes, and then there’s shows like Buffy and Veronica Mars when they get a little older. I want my sons to have no problem with embracing Buffy or Meg's adventures in A Wrinkle in Time or Mary Lennox's transformation in The Secret Garden or Mara's courage and resourcefulness in Mara: Daughter of the Nile (my favorite book in my early teens, and one that's basically a historical spy novel that I think would be awesome for both genders, but the title discourages guys from picking it up). Obviously, I want my daughters to relate to boys and men, too, but they'll have no problem picking that up--it's what our culture teaches them to do from birth.

I don't know, I guess I just found it discouraging that all those guys can't relate to women. I'm always more disappointed to see sexism or racism or just plain cluelessness on whedonesque precisely because I expect more of the people who embrace those shows, and even though this isn't nearly on the level of the arguments I've gotten into over there with guys who think objectifying women is no big deal, it still disappoints me.

So my question is: am I absolutely ridiculous to be disappointed?

~~Plus, I think I'm a bit annoyed because every show/movie/book ever has strong male characters for them to relate to. Ever. Show. Ever.~~

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1. No clue.

2. Nope. I get disappointed when I see that stuff, too.

Would probably have more lengthy answers later in the day...

Not ridiculous. Not sure what we can do about the already-adult guys, but helping our sons to relate to female characters is something we can do. As you point out, there are a number of very fine YA books with strong female protagonists.

2. IAWTP.

kthnx. if men want to find characters to relate to, they can go TO EVERY SHOW EVER, INCLUDING BUFFY. GOD. spike is so pissed right now.

the WC does a really bad job of finding all the potentials, since Buffy, Faith, Rona, Chao-Ahn, and aaaaalll those girls who were empowered by Willow's spell in "Chosen" had no contact with the WC.

Yeah, but I'd say that's largely because the Potentials with Watchers were much easier to find, and thus got slaughtered by Bringers first...

From what we see of Kendra, they've been raised to deny their emotions and not to know how to relate to the larger world. It's all dutydutyduty. How do they ever acclimate themselves to the rest of the world?

I've never really seen Kendra as the Standard Model Potential. I'd think of most of the Potentials as being similar to Kennedy.
And yeah, I think a lot of them would have become Watchers.

1. First, I thought that most of the Potentials that show up during S7 were already known as Potentials by the WC, but the Bringers just hadn't gotten to them yet. So Chao-Ahn, Rona, Kennedy - I thought they already knew their about their Potentialness. (However, we know that you've seen S7 way more than I have. *g*)

As for what they do, it's a good question, and one I don't think ever even occurred to Joss and co. Be watchers or marry watchers, as you say. Actually, in most parts of the non-Western world I expect marriage would be the default. Or maybe they become community protectors? I could definitely see Kendra doing that if she hadn't been called.

Yep, I agree with this. *nods*

With the Potentials in season 7...

Kennedy - had a Watcher
Vi - had a Watcher
Molly - had a Watcher
Annabelle - had a Watcher
Rona - had no idea about anything Slayer-related
Amanda - had never been found
Eve - had a Watcher, I think

And we don't really know about the others.

Yay, canon-check. :)

I think the second part of your first question actually answers the first - a large number of the potentials never know they are, so when they haven't been called by the time they should be, they just go on with their lives, oblivious to what might have been. The ones who did know they were potentials are maybe more likely to be called? They just don't last long, so sometimes it's necessary to bring in one of the untrained girls? I don't know. Just a thought. Or, maybe they do become watchers - passing on all they've been taught including the fighting skills.

I've heard that Angel had a bigger male audience than Buffy did, and I'm sure it was because the primary strong characters were male, whereas in BtVS the males were more sidekicks, boyfriends, etc. Guys just aren't as good at admiring strong women as we are at admiring male heroes. I did, however, think Angel was a pretty well-done and slightly more grown-up show than Buffy was in it's earlier seasons. Whether that's due to the characters being older, or because Joss had learned more about what would appeal to an audience, I don't know.

Ha! I liked your pithy answers. They made me giggle.

Good. I'm always happy to have someone validate my thoughts!

I've had some progress with educating a few of my guy friends about gender-related things, but I can't do that for men in general, and I think the identification thing has to happen while you're young or you never learn it.

Yay for feminist solidarity!

kthnx. if men want to find characters to relate to, they can go TO EVERY SHOW EVER, INCLUDING BUFFY. GOD. I KNOW, RIGHT?

spike is so pissed right now. Ha! I'm sure he is!

That's no doubt true. I think if I understood the limits of the First's powers more, I'd be able to reconcile it. It's not omniscient, obviously, but just how much can it see/how many places can it be at once? Other people might not have this problem, but I'm always unsure of what the rules are with it, besides the fact that it's incorporeal and can only appear as dead people.

However, what I meant by that original statement was that the WC is bad at just finding the Potentials to get them prepared to be the Slayer, even before the First appears on the scene.

I've never really seen Kendra as the Standard Model Potential. I'd think of most of the Potentials as being similar to Kennedy. That's interesting. I always liked the idea of Kendra being the Standard Model because it made Buffy even more special and her standing up to the Council even more bad ass. I have some problems reconciling earlier Slayer knowledge with what we see in S7, though, so it could be just me.

Chao-Ahn also didn't have a Watcher or have any idea about Slayers, etc. Which I didn't know until today when I was rewatching and actually playing close attention the Potentials' stories. ;)

and one I don't think ever even occurred to Joss and co. Definitely. It is you I've had the discussion with about him not being a very good world-builder, right? ;)

I love the idea of them becoming community protectors. It's a lovely thought.

It is you I've had the discussion with about him not being a very good world-builder, right?

I... think so? I've definitely had that conversation with multiple people.

Thanks for your Potential-y thoughts!

Guys just aren't as good at admiring strong women as we are at admiring male heroes. I agree with that, but I think it's a societal thing and also something we need to combat. ;)

I don't know that Angel was more well-done--I can't think of as many knock-it-out-of-the-park episodes of Angel as I can of Buffy, but I agree it was more adult. Of course, my Buffy is seasons 4-7, so I always skew towards the later, more adult seasons there, anyways. Of course, again, that's all taste and doesn't bother me when people disagree with that. More power to all the people who like Angel better. I just think it's kinda sad that our culture is one in which men can't embrace female characters, especially since Joss wants to combat that through his shows. I don't blame the guys who can only bring themselves to identify with men, I blame the larger culture which tells them that that's the only kind of identification that's okay.

Well, if we both remember such a one, then it was probably together. ;)

:)

I gotta say, I've pretty much swung the other way, so maybe I have no right to be disappointed by guys who can't relate to female heroes. Because I'm at the point where I can only very rarely get into a show with no strong females in it. That's why AtS doesn't appeal to me too much. Especially once Lilah died.

It didn't used to be that way. Like most girls, I grew up reading about boys and girls as protagonists, and I was fine with either of them. But now, I'm getting more and more particular and I'm just tired of watching men save the day.

It's like Angel's character is the classic "dark hero seeking redemption". And, wow, boring to me. Been done.

Xena, though, is basically the same character. Dark hero seeking redemption. But she fascinates me because she's a woman. And it's different. And I'm finally seeing a woman in a stereotypically male archetype.

So, yeah, I'm at a point where I very rarely watch/read anything which doesn't have a strong female character in it. It just doesn't hold my interest.

*shrugs* I dunno. I liked Buffy because I could identify with her (and pretend I was all super-power girl) and with Willow, Tara, et al. I viewed the guys as necessary eye candy and romantic interests. That being the case, I can hardly blame a guy for being more able to identify with Angel and Co. which was the reverse.

Not that I don't love Spike dearly, and think he was in some ways a very heroic character, but except for the unrequited love stuff I can't say that I identified with him very strongly.

This is one of those subjects about which I think it's just fine for women to have what some would call a double standard. Because we so rarely get that chance to identify with our own, you know?

It's like Angel's character is the classic "dark hero seeking redemption". And, wow, boring to me. Been done. I love a good redemption story, but Angel was too much of the hero. I like him when he's interacting with Darla and Spike, and I like it when he's being petty or dorky, and I like it when Cordy's calling him out on something. But yeah, as a character on his own? Bo-ring.

But she fascinates me because she's a woman. And it's different. And I'm finally seeing a woman in a stereotypically male archetype. Yes. You're right; it's totally different.

I think there's a big difference in it not holding your interest and you not being able to do it, though. Maybe that's just me. It's important that we learn to put ourselves in the shoes of those who aren't like us. So if a POC told me that they can no longer watch shows without a strong POC character, I totally wouldn't think there's anything wrong with that--they already know how to identify with white people. They've been doing it all their lives.

Also: Lilah was awesome. ;)

It's no the individual guys that bother me; it's that it's indicative of the larger culture and the ways in which it teaches us that men's stories are normative and standard and that men don't ever have to learn to identify with women the way women are forced to identify with men. Just like white people never have to learn to identify with POC, but POC have to identify with whites from day one. Or the GLBT community and heteronormative culture. But that's a pretty huge topic.

Oh, I totally identify with Spike. He's a really, really big loser. He constantly feels on the outside of things. He's needy and has low self-esteem and he has very few connections with others but really wants to be accepted. He isn't the hero (even if many of his actions are heroic), and he really doesn't need to be in the spotlight. He also writes really bad poetry. All of those things I identify with deeply.

I identified with Willow for the first two or so seasons, but after that, she got too cool for me, and it wasn't till Spike came back that I found anyone to identify with. I never felt that I understood Tara well enough to identify with her--I never felt like I knew her. As I said in the post, it wasn't till S5 that I found any way to connect to Buffy at all, and from that point on, my admiration for her and my ability to identify with her just deepened. So in the last few seasons, I see everything from both her POV and Spike's. Which is kind of nice.

You speak sense. I just feel a bit hypocritical shaking my head at boys who don't like to read/watch female protagonists, when I'm doing the opposite. Obviously, the context is different yada yada yada. But still.

And I'm a fan of Angel being a dork. When he gets too serious, I start to roll my eyes. :)

I can understand feeling that way. :)

Honestly, I think the whole Angel brooding thing is almost worth it, just because it gave us Cordy and Wes acting out Bangel: "I love you so much, I almost forgot to brood!" Greatest. Clip. Ever.

I wonder how many Potentials (known to the Council) become watchers. Wouldn't there be more female Watchers if they did?

LOL. I'm going to start keeping track of how many times you two have this very same conversation. ;)

This one counts as #2.

Very good point!

Not exactly an answer to your second question, but I was talking with a friend of mine who's a family therapist, and she was pointing out how much the boys lose growing up just because they conform to the general idea of what a boy should feels and act like.

What happens to potentials after they age out?

I don't think the Council would be ruthless enough to just kill them once they pass 20. :-( Maybe they would pack them off to a nunnery or something of the sort, though. Or as someone suggested, marry them off to Watchers. A few might become Watchers themselves if they had the aptitude and could overcome the patriarchal bias of the Council. I can't really see the Council allowing them to just go out free into the wider world; they had too much information, not to mention a skillset that wouldn't really suit them to be a housewife or farmworker, and would raise questions about how exactly they learned 53 different ways to kill people with their bare hands before they were 16.

the WC does a really bad job of finding all the potentials

I always assumed that they didn't really understand the process by which someone becomes a Potential, but they have 8,000 years of observational data which helps them to identify possible Potentials.

It's clearly not purely hereditary, but maybe it's the magical equivalent of a recessive gene that does pop up in certain bloodlines from generation to generation. Or maybe you can become a Potential if your mother gives birth to you by the light of a full moon when the stars are in a certain position, or something like that. Or maybe there's a conscious, active Power chasing who becomes a Potential.

In S7, I assume Giles had copies of the Council's records and was going around from one Potential/Watcher to the next according to the list... unfortunately, the First (or rather, Caleb)had the same list and was ahead of him. The First clearly can't read minds, since Buffy's plan took it by surprise - or maybe it can read your mind if you're completely evil, and the less evil you are, the harder it finds it. It can eavesdrop invisibly, though, and it has worshippers, so presumably it got hold of the Council's roster of Watchers before beginning its plan.

Giles also gets help from the Coven in Devon; I assume they're separate from the Council and use a different, more purely magical means to sense and locate Potentials. After 'Chosen', Willow also seems to have a direct magical link to them all ("I can feel them, Buffy").

Re: the Standard Model Potential - I think it really depends on the culture in which the Potential is raised. Kendra says that the calling is taken very seriously by her people, and that's why her parents gave her up to her Watcher to be trained from a young age.

I don't want to get too stereotypical about developed countries vs. developing ones, but I would imagine that a Potential growing up in the US, like Kennedy, would get a VERY different reaction from her parents. Slayers and vampires are not part of Western culture (except as myths), so the obedience to duty and custom Kendra's people practiced would be absent. The Council would just have to adapt their methods to whatever the Slayer and her family would accept.

I still think Buffy's special, though. :)

The conversation about world-building, or the conversation about whether we've had this conversation? ;)

Yeah. Someone down- (or up-?) thread suggested that they marry them off to Watchers, which seems much more likely.

Yeah. It's sad. I'm not one of those people who think there are no differences beeween genders beside the biological, but there is so much stuff that's cultural baggage, and it can be so damaging to everyone.

I don't think the Council would be ruthless enough to just kill them once they pass 20. :-( What a horrible thought. Though I wouldn't be surprised if at particularly brutal periods of history, they might have. I can see a Potential/former Potential, say, being burned at the stake as a which because of her abilities.

I can't really see the Council allowing them to just go out free into the wider world; they had too much information, not to mention a skillset that wouldn't really suit them to be a housewife or farmworker, and would raise questions about how exactly they learned 53 different ways to kill people with their bare hands before they were 16. Very good point.

I always assumed that they didn't really understand the process by which someone becomes a Potential, but they have 8,000 years of observational data which helps them to identify possible Potentials. I guess I assumed that because they don't seem to have any problem finding the Slayer once she's chosen, they should be able to find the Potentials pretty easily, too. But perhaps there's a spell to find the Slayer specifically because of how much more powerful a Slayer is than a Potential?

I love the idea of the magical equivalent of a recessive gene. Absolutely.

No, I think you're probably right. I would still think that the Council would try to lessen a girl's distractions--Kennedy might be able to interact with her family, but I can't imagine they would let her be on a sports team or go out clubbing with friends on a regular basis, you know? But the extent to which they restrict a Potential's interactions with the greater world could definitely be dependent upon what culture they're in. And what era she's living in.

I still think Buffy's special, though. :) Absolutely. :)

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