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a mess of a post about love triangles (this is not even meta. it is rambling)
Warning: this post is a mess. Just…a mess. Proceed with caution.
There’s spoilers here on things that have already aired, but everything’s labeled with its fandom, so just skip over anything you haven’t seen all of yet.
So a couple of days ago when that “ask me a fandom-y question!” meme was going around, I ended up asking![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
ever_neutral what her top five this-should-just-end-in-a-threesome fandom situations were (because: duh) and the answers were awesome and it got me to thinking about love triangles.
Because mostly I find them annoying. Mostly I think they’re there to Create! Drama! and there’s no real question of who’s going to end up with whom (I mean, seriously, did anyone in the world actually think that Bella was going to choose Jacob over Edward? I mean really? Ship that all you want, but I don't think the most naive person alive would think there was a chance Bella would choose Jacob) and it’s just this sort of lazy device to Keep the Starcrossed Lovers apart. I start to yawn.
But! Occasionally it’s done Actually Well! My basic philosophy on stories in general is that Almost Anything can be awesome if it’s Done Well (there are a few things I have no interest in even if they’re done well, but that list is veeeery short). And that occasionally does apply even to the dread Love Triangles (or Squares).
Of course the key to them being good is that they have to actually come from the characters and not from the demands of the plot (I guess this is a theme with me lately). Now there are some that fall into that category, where everyone’s acting in character, but I am still annoyed by the triangle because I don’t care about 1/3 of said triangle. If I have no investment in that character, I find it hard to invest in their role in the triangle. So. Mostly my favorites are ones where A) everyone is acting in character and B) I love (or at least like) everyone.
First off, some Love Triangles (or other shapes) that Work for Me:
1. Mawang. Kang Oh Soo -Seo Hae In-Oh Seung Ha. New obsession. I cannot reiterate enough how perfectly constructed this love triangle is. And mostly that’s because the sides are equal. Kang Oh Soo to Seo Hae In to Oh Seung Ha and back again: all of them are perfect. True, the relationship between the boys is…so many degrees and levels of complicated that it makes Spike and Angel’s relationship look like a walk in the park, but it’s still powerful and real and makes sense. And it’s one of the few times when I believe that the girl actually does have profound feelings for both of the boys. And their lives are just so tangled up in each other that when you strip everything away they’re defining each other in all the ways that matter. They’ve chosen each other, sometimes in real strange and unexpected and even ugly ways, but those ways always arise out of who they are as people and the choices they make. This is one of the times where I just want them to run away and live in a house on the beach together and work through their issues and be perfect all three of them together. I spent the whole time seriously torn between which boy Hae In should pick and that NEVER happens. I’m usually yelling at the screen because the answer is so obvious. But not this time. I love everyone in this morally complicated bar, basically.
2. Vampire Diaries. Stefan-Elena-Damon-(Katherine). No, really! It’s not that I ship everything going on here, because I don’t, really, but I think this is one of those cases where things make sense for the characters and that the way it unfolds makes for good television. Now, the way that fandom treats this as a typical OH WHO’S SHE GOING TO CHOOSE LET’S HAVE A SHIPPER WAR kind of thing is stupid. But the actual text…makes so much sense. It really does. I totally understand why both of the boys are so into Elena (and some of those reasons are healthy ones and some of them are so very not) and I get why Elena chooses Stefan but why Damon is such a big part of her (he is SO her Spuffy-esque dark place, I cannot even). Someone on tumblr (probably ruthseriouslydothis, but I could be wrong) points out that the reason they’re so perfect is that Stefan’s always going to choose Damon, Damon’s always going to choose Elena, and Elena’s always going to choose Stefan (it’s slightly more complicated than that, but it’s a good way of boiling it down) so they’re like this perfect little equilateral triangle of messed-up-ness. And the thing is, the show makes it really clear that Elena isn’t going to choose Damon (it really does), so there isn’t this perpetual (mostly boring) question hanging in the air. When it comes to what matters, she’s going to choose Stefan, but she’s also going to sit in the shadows with Damon when Stefan can’t be there. AND THOSE BOYS WHO KEEP SAVING EACH OTHER AND HATING EACH OTHER FOR THE SAVING. Oh, man. And then toss Katherine in here, and how Damon loved her too much and Stefan didn’t love her enough and she loved both of them (WHATEVER IT’S CANON, BITCHES), and I just love what a tangled mess these ridiculous people are.
3. Skins. Tony-Michelle-Sid. Not in the first series. I don’t have any interest in Sid’s unrequited love or whatever. I love you Sid, baby, but get over it. BUT THE SECOND SERIES. When Michelle and Sid can’t handle what’s happened to Tony and they sort of stumble into each other and it’s not about like romantic love or whatever, but it is about Tony and how neither one of them can reach him anymore and how much they hate themselves for that and how much they resent that they still feel the obligation to be there for him. And it’s also about their friendship, because they do love each other as friends so very much and they’ve reached the point where they can see each other pretty clearly except that they also always see Tony when they look at each other and come on let’s be honest: at least 90% of their little affair is about Tony and how they can’t have him and how they see each other as the embodiment of him. And the other 10% is about the comfort of friendship. And so obviously that falls apart once Tony starts to take control of his life again. And he just loves them both so much (Tony and Sid’s friendship is honestly one of my favorites ever, I can’t even) but he’s so bad at actually showing love because of this façade he’s created for himself (he has Created Tony Stonem so perfect in series 1, and then the accident and it all crumbles, and then series 2 is about him building Tony Stonem again but it’s different this time). And probably they all need some time apart from each other so they can figure out who they are (especially Sid and Michelle apart from Tony) but also I just see them drawing each other back in always.
4. Not a love triangle in canon, but: Harry Potter. Harry-Ron-Hermione. Because come on. The Trio together always is the only thing that makes sense. (Though I do love JKR for not going the obvious route with the love triangle in-text). These three do not work for me if they’re presented as a typical love triangle with the boys sparring for the affection of the girl (though if someone wrote ‘Harry and Hermione fight over who gets Ron’ fic, I would probably be all over that for the lulz). But if they decided to be together as a threesome: YES.
5. Buffyverse. Angel-Buffy-Spike. BUT ONLY SOMETIMES. I mostly hate the way people write this love triangle. Like, really hate it. The show manages to skirt it pretty well (except for “End of Days” which is STUPID and a few times in AtS S5) because there’s not a lot of overlap between the Angel-Buffy, Spike-Buffy, Angel-Spike romances chronology-wise. But so many people present this so wrong in fic. This is not a couple of teenage boys who are competing for the pretty girl (though the occasional twelve-year-old pettiness is EXCELLENT). But most people use this triangle in fic to create some sort of drama—like, because of who’s writing it, we know that Buffy will end up either with Angel or with Spike going in, but the writer wants to create some DRAMA and so they throw the other one in there to compete! And…yeah, sometimes that can be in character, but I still get bored with it? I’m so much more interested in these three seeing that they’re all a part of each other so let’s work this thing out. There is centuries of history here and all kinds of deaths and resurrections and lots of blood and horrible things but also lots of moments of peace and love very very hard-won. Like, embrace the complications. I think it would be hella complicated if they did decide to see this thing through, and it would probably only ever happen if most of the people Buffy cares about are out of her life (whether because of death or something else) because she still cares too much about what other people think, but I can see scenarios in which they would work through this. And probably there would be lots of fights and some serious brooding from Angel and such. But it could work, even if it was so, so messy. (Only if Cordy’s still dead, though. If Cordy’s alive it’s Angel and Cordy all the way, okay?) And just in general I am tickled to death that canonically each one of them has been with both of the others. EVERYONE’S SLEPT WITH EVERYONE ELSE. IN CANON. [Also, I would probably pay someone to write me fic wherein Buffy and Angel fight over Spike. Because it’s ALWAYS Angel and Spike fighting over Buffy and in a few rare cases Buffy and Spike fighting over Angel, but I would like to see Spike fought over dammit!]
A few that don’t (or wouldn't) work for me in canon but that could be EXCELLENT in fandom:
1. Downton Abbey. Mary-Matthew-Lavinia. Always in mourning over my girl Lavinia. Always. I mostly hate this in-canon because no one really believed for a second that Fellowes wouldn’t have Mary and Matthew be endgame, and he’s such a lazy writer that he even kills of Lavinia to make it happen EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN’T HAVE TO. He wrote the out himself. He had Lavinia be aware enough of what’s going on around her that she sees that Matthew really wants to be with Mary and she steps aside. YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO KILL HER, YOU RIDICULOUS FOOL. Ugh. I hate the canon stuff so bad. But they would be perfect in fanon.
2. Leverage. Hardison-Parker-Eliot. I’ve liked this on occasion in fic, but I’m a total and complete Parker/Hardison fangirl so I have no interest in this happening in canon (not that it ever would).
A few that don’t work for me at all but are probably well-constructed:
1. The Hour. Hector-Bel-Freddie. I get why people OT3 them. I really get it. But while I got to the point where I like Hector okay as a person, I am mostly like GO BACK TO YOUR WIFE, HECTOR (adultery = number one squick ever). Marnie is awesome. Bel/Freddie forever. And by forever, I mean forever being in that complicated place where they’re clearly more to each other than friends but aren’t actually together and sometimes really hate each other and sometimes really are bffs and sometimes Freddie quotes e.e. cummings poetry to Bel and journalistic shenanigans ensue. That’s how I like them.
2. BSG. Sam-Kara-Lee-Dee. What is this? I mean, it totally makes sense for each one of the characters. I respect that. I think it’s a very well-done mess, for the most part. But I don’t care about Kara and Lee, so I can’t flail over this. I’ll leave that to other people.
3. Friday Night Lights. Jason-Lyla-Tim. It’s so Arthurian! I do like that! But I don’t know. I don’t invest in this love triangle. I just don’t care for the most part, especially about Jason and Lyla. Mostly I’m just here for the Jason and Tim bff relationship. That said, all of their behaviors make so much sense with who they are as people. I can appreciate it even if I don’t enjoy it.
Some that Do Not Work for Me:
1. Doctor Who. Rory-Amy-Eleven and Rose-Nine/Ten-Mickey. The former is just an attempt at creating DRAMA for its own sake (and making Rory a much less interesting character in the process) and dragging it out too far and the latter just makes me sad for Mickey who doesn’t deserve to get strung along or whatever. Thankfully they eventually dropped the whole Rory-Amy-Eleven thing and everything was better. And then Mickey got to marry Martha (I will not say: upgrade! here because I don’t dislike Rose. But I love Martha so much that to me it does feel like an upgrade).
2. Veronica Mars. Duncan-Veronica-Logan. UGH DUNCAN YOU ARE SO BORING. I think this role was miscast. Probably someone else could have at least made him interesting. But as it stands I never care about Duncan except when it comes to his baby. I’ll be over here shipping Veronica and Logan, thanks very much.
3. LOST. Jack-Kate-Sawyer. Okay, so I only watched the first two seasons of this show. But this BUGGED me. The show was clearly setting up Jack/Kate as endgame, but I don’t care a thing about Jack and his manpain, so I only shipped Kate/Sawyer but not like hardcore or anything because the whole triangle just bugged me. Ugh. Did not want.
4. Gossip Girl. Nate-Blair-Chuck. NATE WAS SO BORING. I know that since I quit watching this show (the end of S2), everyone has jumped ship to Blair/Dan, which from what I’ve seen on tumblr, I support! But back in the day it was all about Blair and Chuck, and Nate was just harshing my squee.
5. Every other kdrama I’ve seen. Go away, Yul! Go away, Chae Rin! ESPECIALLY GO AWAY PRESIDENT BYUN.
So now you should tell me about which love triangles work for you and which you hate and why. We should talk about this.
There’s spoilers here on things that have already aired, but everything’s labeled with its fandom, so just skip over anything you haven’t seen all of yet.
So a couple of days ago when that “ask me a fandom-y question!” meme was going around, I ended up asking
ever_neutral what her top five this-should-just-end-in-a-threesome fandom situations were (because: duh) and the answers were awesome and it got me to thinking about love triangles.Because mostly I find them annoying. Mostly I think they’re there to Create! Drama! and there’s no real question of who’s going to end up with whom (I mean, seriously, did anyone in the world actually think that Bella was going to choose Jacob over Edward? I mean really? Ship that all you want, but I don't think the most naive person alive would think there was a chance Bella would choose Jacob) and it’s just this sort of lazy device to Keep the Starcrossed Lovers apart. I start to yawn.
But! Occasionally it’s done Actually Well! My basic philosophy on stories in general is that Almost Anything can be awesome if it’s Done Well (there are a few things I have no interest in even if they’re done well, but that list is veeeery short). And that occasionally does apply even to the dread Love Triangles (or Squares).
Of course the key to them being good is that they have to actually come from the characters and not from the demands of the plot (I guess this is a theme with me lately). Now there are some that fall into that category, where everyone’s acting in character, but I am still annoyed by the triangle because I don’t care about 1/3 of said triangle. If I have no investment in that character, I find it hard to invest in their role in the triangle. So. Mostly my favorites are ones where A) everyone is acting in character and B) I love (or at least like) everyone.
First off, some Love Triangles (or other shapes) that Work for Me:
1. Mawang. Kang Oh Soo -Seo Hae In-Oh Seung Ha. New obsession. I cannot reiterate enough how perfectly constructed this love triangle is. And mostly that’s because the sides are equal. Kang Oh Soo to Seo Hae In to Oh Seung Ha and back again: all of them are perfect. True, the relationship between the boys is…so many degrees and levels of complicated that it makes Spike and Angel’s relationship look like a walk in the park, but it’s still powerful and real and makes sense. And it’s one of the few times when I believe that the girl actually does have profound feelings for both of the boys. And their lives are just so tangled up in each other that when you strip everything away they’re defining each other in all the ways that matter. They’ve chosen each other, sometimes in real strange and unexpected and even ugly ways, but those ways always arise out of who they are as people and the choices they make. This is one of the times where I just want them to run away and live in a house on the beach together and work through their issues and be perfect all three of them together. I spent the whole time seriously torn between which boy Hae In should pick and that NEVER happens. I’m usually yelling at the screen because the answer is so obvious. But not this time. I love everyone in this morally complicated bar, basically.
2. Vampire Diaries. Stefan-Elena-Damon-(Katherine). No, really! It’s not that I ship everything going on here, because I don’t, really, but I think this is one of those cases where things make sense for the characters and that the way it unfolds makes for good television. Now, the way that fandom treats this as a typical OH WHO’S SHE GOING TO CHOOSE LET’S HAVE A SHIPPER WAR kind of thing is stupid. But the actual text…makes so much sense. It really does. I totally understand why both of the boys are so into Elena (and some of those reasons are healthy ones and some of them are so very not) and I get why Elena chooses Stefan but why Damon is such a big part of her (he is SO her Spuffy-esque dark place, I cannot even). Someone on tumblr (probably ruthseriouslydothis, but I could be wrong) points out that the reason they’re so perfect is that Stefan’s always going to choose Damon, Damon’s always going to choose Elena, and Elena’s always going to choose Stefan (it’s slightly more complicated than that, but it’s a good way of boiling it down) so they’re like this perfect little equilateral triangle of messed-up-ness. And the thing is, the show makes it really clear that Elena isn’t going to choose Damon (it really does), so there isn’t this perpetual (mostly boring) question hanging in the air. When it comes to what matters, she’s going to choose Stefan, but she’s also going to sit in the shadows with Damon when Stefan can’t be there. AND THOSE BOYS WHO KEEP SAVING EACH OTHER AND HATING EACH OTHER FOR THE SAVING. Oh, man. And then toss Katherine in here, and how Damon loved her too much and Stefan didn’t love her enough and she loved both of them (WHATEVER IT’S CANON, BITCHES), and I just love what a tangled mess these ridiculous people are.
3. Skins. Tony-Michelle-Sid. Not in the first series. I don’t have any interest in Sid’s unrequited love or whatever. I love you Sid, baby, but get over it. BUT THE SECOND SERIES. When Michelle and Sid can’t handle what’s happened to Tony and they sort of stumble into each other and it’s not about like romantic love or whatever, but it is about Tony and how neither one of them can reach him anymore and how much they hate themselves for that and how much they resent that they still feel the obligation to be there for him. And it’s also about their friendship, because they do love each other as friends so very much and they’ve reached the point where they can see each other pretty clearly except that they also always see Tony when they look at each other and come on let’s be honest: at least 90% of their little affair is about Tony and how they can’t have him and how they see each other as the embodiment of him. And the other 10% is about the comfort of friendship. And so obviously that falls apart once Tony starts to take control of his life again. And he just loves them both so much (Tony and Sid’s friendship is honestly one of my favorites ever, I can’t even) but he’s so bad at actually showing love because of this façade he’s created for himself (he has Created Tony Stonem so perfect in series 1, and then the accident and it all crumbles, and then series 2 is about him building Tony Stonem again but it’s different this time). And probably they all need some time apart from each other so they can figure out who they are (especially Sid and Michelle apart from Tony) but also I just see them drawing each other back in always.
4. Not a love triangle in canon, but: Harry Potter. Harry-Ron-Hermione. Because come on. The Trio together always is the only thing that makes sense. (Though I do love JKR for not going the obvious route with the love triangle in-text). These three do not work for me if they’re presented as a typical love triangle with the boys sparring for the affection of the girl (though if someone wrote ‘Harry and Hermione fight over who gets Ron’ fic, I would probably be all over that for the lulz). But if they decided to be together as a threesome: YES.
5. Buffyverse. Angel-Buffy-Spike. BUT ONLY SOMETIMES. I mostly hate the way people write this love triangle. Like, really hate it. The show manages to skirt it pretty well (except for “End of Days” which is STUPID and a few times in AtS S5) because there’s not a lot of overlap between the Angel-Buffy, Spike-Buffy, Angel-Spike romances chronology-wise. But so many people present this so wrong in fic. This is not a couple of teenage boys who are competing for the pretty girl (though the occasional twelve-year-old pettiness is EXCELLENT). But most people use this triangle in fic to create some sort of drama—like, because of who’s writing it, we know that Buffy will end up either with Angel or with Spike going in, but the writer wants to create some DRAMA and so they throw the other one in there to compete! And…yeah, sometimes that can be in character, but I still get bored with it? I’m so much more interested in these three seeing that they’re all a part of each other so let’s work this thing out. There is centuries of history here and all kinds of deaths and resurrections and lots of blood and horrible things but also lots of moments of peace and love very very hard-won. Like, embrace the complications. I think it would be hella complicated if they did decide to see this thing through, and it would probably only ever happen if most of the people Buffy cares about are out of her life (whether because of death or something else) because she still cares too much about what other people think, but I can see scenarios in which they would work through this. And probably there would be lots of fights and some serious brooding from Angel and such. But it could work, even if it was so, so messy. (Only if Cordy’s still dead, though. If Cordy’s alive it’s Angel and Cordy all the way, okay?) And just in general I am tickled to death that canonically each one of them has been with both of the others. EVERYONE’S SLEPT WITH EVERYONE ELSE. IN CANON. [Also, I would probably pay someone to write me fic wherein Buffy and Angel fight over Spike. Because it’s ALWAYS Angel and Spike fighting over Buffy and in a few rare cases Buffy and Spike fighting over Angel, but I would like to see Spike fought over dammit!]
A few that don’t (or wouldn't) work for me in canon but that could be EXCELLENT in fandom:
1. Downton Abbey. Mary-Matthew-Lavinia. Always in mourning over my girl Lavinia. Always. I mostly hate this in-canon because no one really believed for a second that Fellowes wouldn’t have Mary and Matthew be endgame, and he’s such a lazy writer that he even kills of Lavinia to make it happen EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN’T HAVE TO. He wrote the out himself. He had Lavinia be aware enough of what’s going on around her that she sees that Matthew really wants to be with Mary and she steps aside. YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO KILL HER, YOU RIDICULOUS FOOL. Ugh. I hate the canon stuff so bad. But they would be perfect in fanon.
2. Leverage. Hardison-Parker-Eliot. I’ve liked this on occasion in fic, but I’m a total and complete Parker/Hardison fangirl so I have no interest in this happening in canon (not that it ever would).
A few that don’t work for me at all but are probably well-constructed:
1. The Hour. Hector-Bel-Freddie. I get why people OT3 them. I really get it. But while I got to the point where I like Hector okay as a person, I am mostly like GO BACK TO YOUR WIFE, HECTOR (adultery = number one squick ever). Marnie is awesome. Bel/Freddie forever. And by forever, I mean forever being in that complicated place where they’re clearly more to each other than friends but aren’t actually together and sometimes really hate each other and sometimes really are bffs and sometimes Freddie quotes e.e. cummings poetry to Bel and journalistic shenanigans ensue. That’s how I like them.
2. BSG. Sam-Kara-Lee-Dee. What is this? I mean, it totally makes sense for each one of the characters. I respect that. I think it’s a very well-done mess, for the most part. But I don’t care about Kara and Lee, so I can’t flail over this. I’ll leave that to other people.
3. Friday Night Lights. Jason-Lyla-Tim. It’s so Arthurian! I do like that! But I don’t know. I don’t invest in this love triangle. I just don’t care for the most part, especially about Jason and Lyla. Mostly I’m just here for the Jason and Tim bff relationship. That said, all of their behaviors make so much sense with who they are as people. I can appreciate it even if I don’t enjoy it.
Some that Do Not Work for Me:
1. Doctor Who. Rory-Amy-Eleven and Rose-Nine/Ten-Mickey. The former is just an attempt at creating DRAMA for its own sake (and making Rory a much less interesting character in the process) and dragging it out too far and the latter just makes me sad for Mickey who doesn’t deserve to get strung along or whatever. Thankfully they eventually dropped the whole Rory-Amy-Eleven thing and everything was better. And then Mickey got to marry Martha (I will not say: upgrade! here because I don’t dislike Rose. But I love Martha so much that to me it does feel like an upgrade).
2. Veronica Mars. Duncan-Veronica-Logan. UGH DUNCAN YOU ARE SO BORING. I think this role was miscast. Probably someone else could have at least made him interesting. But as it stands I never care about Duncan except when it comes to his baby. I’ll be over here shipping Veronica and Logan, thanks very much.
3. LOST. Jack-Kate-Sawyer. Okay, so I only watched the first two seasons of this show. But this BUGGED me. The show was clearly setting up Jack/Kate as endgame, but I don’t care a thing about Jack and his manpain, so I only shipped Kate/Sawyer but not like hardcore or anything because the whole triangle just bugged me. Ugh. Did not want.
4. Gossip Girl. Nate-Blair-Chuck. NATE WAS SO BORING. I know that since I quit watching this show (the end of S2), everyone has jumped ship to Blair/Dan, which from what I’ve seen on tumblr, I support! But back in the day it was all about Blair and Chuck, and Nate was just harshing my squee.
5. Every other kdrama I’ve seen. Go away, Yul! Go away, Chae Rin! ESPECIALLY GO AWAY PRESIDENT BYUN.
So now you should tell me about which love triangles work for you and which you hate and why. We should talk about this.
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I've just started watching Veronica Mars yesterday (and I've already watched 9 episodes, I judge myself...), and there's no triangle to speak of yet, but you're right, I couldn't care less about the Duncan boy. Logan really is a psychotic jackass, but at least he's interesting. I really love Veronica, and I don't really ship her with anyone yet, but mostly because I'm too busy hitting "next episode" button to stop and think ;). But it was hard not to find out that there will be some Veronica/Logan, and I can't wait to see how it works in the show. Those two are both excellent characters, so it's bound to be interesting :D.
Sorry, I would talk about other triangles, but I have 1x10 to watch, and I might explode if I don't ;).
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Those two are both excellent characters, so it's bound to be interesting :D.
Exactly. :D
Enjoy the next episode! I'm so thrilled that you're watching such a quality show!
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That was totally how I watched that show, too. I watched the entire first season in six days, five of which I worked. And maybe that doesn't seem like a lot for some people? But I totally got up in the morning thinking, "If I get home from work by this time, I can fit in this many episodes before bed..."
And then I never watched S2 or S3. Like, S1 was so perfect I didn't want any more. :P
no subject
I think mostly I am very interested in love triangles if 'love' means caring, or affection in any way. The trick for me is that the focus lies on that, not exclusively on romantic love. This is because it only works if the three strands are equally interesting. And actually, The Hour is forever my Show That Did It Right, because every side of the triangle is interesting, gets screentime, and has a different dynamic. Bel/Freddie is about friendship and could-have-beens and partnership, Bel/Hector is about right-here-and-now, about identity and choices, and Freddie/Hector is about respect and adapting. Of course I ship Bel/Freddie, and at first I despised Hector, but in the end I love what happened there and it could not have been more perfect to me.
I also like Mitchell/George/Annie of course, and this is actually why I was really into Mitchell/Annie in S1 - it would have made their threesome more interesting to have that different dynamic. (I think they messed it up when they did go there, though/)
And of course, there's a big difference between appreciating three characters and their relationship to each other - which sometimes is a Love triangle and sometimes isn't - and it's something else to OT3 ship them. I couldn't ever do that. I think Parker/Eliot/Hardison is perfect because Parker/Hardison is the romantic side of that triangle and the other sides aren't remotely romantic.
And I just realised that this is YET ANOTHER of my story interests that can be related back to Brideshead Revisited. Maybe that's my Star Wars.
no subject
I actually ended up liking Hector okay as a character, but adultery is my number one squick ever periods, so I'm never, ever, ever going to ship that. Ever. Unless if Marnia suddenly dies or something. But I don't want that to happen because I like Marnie.
And of course, there's a big difference between appreciating three characters and their relationship to each other - which sometimes is a Love triangle and sometimes isn't - and it's something else to OT3 ship them.
Absolutely. Like, if we leave romantic love out of the equation, I am so obsessed with Spike-Dawn-Buffy as a group, with all of these people who love each other so much and have complicated relationships.
think Parker/Eliot/Hardison is perfect because Parker/Hardison is the romantic side of that triangle and the other sides aren't remotely romantic.
Yeah, definitely. I don't need them as OT3 at all, though I've enjoyed some fic in that vein on occasion.
Brideshead Revisited
Book/miniseries/movie?
no subject
Oh yeah, I get that! I love Marnie too, and I don't ship it or technically like Hector much. I just think it's interesting.
I saw the Brideshead miniseries when I was quite young, then read the book, then saw the miniseries again, then the movie when it came out. The mini left quite an impact and seems to be responsible for a lot of my present taste, and I love the book. The movie, not so much ;)
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I love Marnie too, and I don't ship it or technically like Hector much. I just think it's interesting.
This definitely makes sense.
The mini left quite an impact and seems to be responsible for a lot of my present taste, and I love the book. The movie, not so much ;)
Interesting! I've never gotten around to reading the book, but I want to at some point.
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I am so whelmed about starting S5 of Who. I don't understand what is happening to my show? Because Ten is gone and this ridiculous, weird dude is in his place and HE'S HAPPY TO BE HERE. I do not like that at all; I kind of wish the mourning for Ten (who is him, allegedly) could have been drawn out a bit because Eleven just turned me off with being fine and dandy after regeneration. And if he's going to compromise Rory, who is the one I'm most looking forward to in S5/S6, well.... (as Ten would say).
Duncan was worse than watching paint dry. I do not understand why anyone cared about him at all.
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See, I had grown to flinch every time Ten was onscreen (because of Martha, because of Donna especially). So I looooove Eleven. He was just what I needed to recover from the way that what happened to Donna just destroyed me (I had reached the point where I thought I'd never be able to enjoy DW again. I had a rebirth of my own, I guess, when Eleven came along).
Eleven himself doesn't compromise Rory--he loves Rory! It's the writing that does it. I still madly, madly love Rory, but it's kind of like with Martha--I love her so much, but sometimes the writing for her and around her sucked so hard. If that makes sense.
Duncan was worse than watching paint dry. I do not understand why anyone cared about him at all.
I KNOW RIGHT?
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But even with The Waters of Mars, he was still the Doctor I grew to love, really love, the series with, with all its quirks, so I'm not quite done with it yet. And Eleven is just so damn bouncy in the middle of my grief. We will see.
If they do to Rory what they did to Martha, I am going to be metaphorically throwing things.
WORSE THAN PAINT DRYING.
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I loooove your thoughts on Angel and Buffy fighting over Spike. I want that as well. Bad
I know! It would be so subversive! With the potential for much hilarity!
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YES YES YES. I love Lavinia AND Mary SO Much, and I don't love Matthew quite that much, but they both seem to, so I'm happy enough to throw him in, too. I want them all to live at Downton together until they are old and gray.
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This is exactly how I feel. Exactly!
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Yes yes yes this! I mean, that applies to pretty much anything, lol. But it's especially true with things that are generally Causes of Epic Frustration, such as love triangles. Nothing makes me want to turn the TV off like "who will he/she chooooose?" angst. Ugh. Especially when the choice is obvious.
My feels on your feels!
Vampire Diaries. Stefan-Elena-Damon-(Katherine).
Agreed! I think this one works partly because it's not only a literal triangle, but because it also works on a metaphor level, with Stefan and Damon being reflections of Elena, and Elena and Katherine being symbolic within Stefan and Damon's narratives as well. It's never just about "who will Elena choose?" but rather "who will Elena choose to be?"
Skins. Tony-Michelle-Sid.
YES. Although I was actually kind of rooting for Sid in S1 because Tony was so horrible to Michelle. (I am a Tony/Michelle shipper now, dw). The whole rebuilding process in S2, though, GAH. All three of them, floundering all over the place after the accident. It's like they ALL lost their sense of identity, because they all defined themselves by Tony. My favorite heartbreakers.
Leverage. Hardison-Parker-Eliot.
Huh. This had never actually occurred to me? Mainly because Eliot shows zero romantic interest in either of them, haha. I mean, I don't doubt that people ship it, but it never would have occurred to me to label it "doesn't work in canon" because... there is no canon triangle the way there are with the others.
Agreed on all your "do not work" triangles! Well, the ones I've seen anyway.
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YES. This is it entirely. And different choices bring her closer to different brothers and OMG YES.
The whole rebuilding process in S2, though, GAH. All three of them, floundering all over the place after the accident. It's like they ALL lost their sense of identity, because they all defined themselves by Tony.
YES YES YES. *flails*
Mainly because Eliot shows zero romantic interest in either of them, haha.
And yet if you look at ff.net, like 70% of the fic is Parker/Eliot. Which I: WHAT?
but it never would have occurred to me to label it "doesn't work in canon" because... there is no canon triangle the way there are with the others
True, but I was kind of going for a "this can only work in fandom" sort of thing with them. It would neeeeever work in canon.
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I KNOW. WHAT IS GOING ON?
I can even understand if there were an abundance of Eliot/Hardison--because slashers gon slash, you know? But no! There's a great het ship all set up in canon, and yet people only seem to want to write about Parker/Eliot. I AM SO SAD BECAUSE OF THIS.
And the thing is... I can almost see where the Eliot/Parker folks are coming from. I see something different; I see a sibling relationship there. But I get how folks can look at that and see... flirting? But, still. There's no explanation that will satisfy me on WHY there's MORE P/E than P/H. IT MAKES NO SENSE, INTERNET.
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But yeah, the only reason I can think of for why there's so much more Parker/Eliot is...racism. Like, they can't handle the black guy. I mean, I hate to leap to that conclusion (and obviously I wouldn't assume that of individuals who ship it--they may just like the characters better), but there's an overwhelming tendency in fandom to ignore characters of color and in teenage-penned het fandom (see: ff.net) to pair up the white guy/white girl and in older-writers slash fandom to pair up the guys (usually white again). Everyone else gets shoved to teh side.
see something different; I see a sibling relationship there.
Definitely. There's not a vibe there at all for me.
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YES. I know there has to be one. Mary/Matthew/Lavinia comes closest perhaps, except that we all knew Mary/Matthew was endgame. Bend It Like Beckham, sort of? I need to ponder this more.
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There's The Princess and the Frog? But, I mean, that's only notable because Lotte is an absolute sweetheart rather than horrid and selfish - it's still totally clear who'll get the prince there.
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Bookverse Cosette/Marius/Eponine in Les Miz, maybe? Although Marius isn't exactly torn between them and Eponine is just a touch creepy, sending him off to the barricade so that they would ~die together~. I think if I hadn't known the musical beforehand, I wouldn't have found Marius/Cosette so 'obvious'. I would've thought he was dying on the barricade too, and the last act would be about Cosette trying to get on with her life. There was this part where Cosette was trying her damnedest to think about being happy in a world without him, so yeah.
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But there's always:
Darla/Dru/Angelus
Wesley/Fred/Lilah
Rachel/Quinn/Finn (I'm a Gleek, yo - and even though this trio pisses me off, it's still there)
Or you know... ANY Edith Wharton novel EVER.
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Non-Buffy triangles that I enjoy quite a lot:
+Jess/Rory/Dean from Gilmore Girls.
+To a lesser extent Christopher (or Max)/Lorelai/Luke from GG.
+Basically anything on TVD works for me (except for anything involving Matt--well, maybe Matt/Bonnie/?), which is unprecedented. I'm usually a very monogamous shipper.
+Veronica/Logan/Piz (from season 3, which I know you're not really down with), and I have some very serious thoughts about Duncan/Veronica/Logan.
+I'm surprised to say this--but story-wise, the mess they've made of Barney/Robin/Ted on HIMYM really works for me. It's not so great shipping-wise, though. It has basically made me want to sweep Robin up in my arms and carry her away from all these douches.
+Jeff/Britta/Slater (the prof he dated). I LOVED how this was dealt with. How it skewered the whole love-triangle construct. And how it dealt with exactly the kind of thing you're talking about--making the triangle a plot device instead of coming from the characters. It was so great. Didn't work for me shipping-wise, though.
Um. Okay. Let's talk Veronica/Duncan/Logan. I find Duncan totally and completely boring--bordering on repulsive. So, I'm not into that leg of the triangle for shipping purposes AT ALL. And, I'll admit, it makes me a little bit physically ill to rewatch those episodes beginning-to-mid S2, because I hate seeing them together so much. However! What REALLY, REALLY works for me about this triangle, is the antagonism and smoldering feelings between Veronica and Logan. And I think it really works from a character-development angle: Veronica's retreating from the vulnerability that she felt with Logan. Looking for stability, safety with Duncan. And yet all those feelings are still there. She's STILL vulnerable to/with Logan. Way more so than she is with Duncan. And she's not even WITH Logan. So... I'm rambling. My point is, I don't care about that part of the triangle, but it still works for me because I think Veronica needs it in order to figure out that she's going to be drawn to Logan no matter what.
Re Parker/Hardison/Eliot.
Dude. I could talk about this all day. I seriously get why people see this--I do. But I really, really don't see the same thing they do. I have no doubt that there's some excellent fic with this threesome--but I just don't feel that from Eliot. He gives off SUCH a big brother vibe with both of them. Shoving Parker over when she sits too close to him on the couch, making fun of Hardison for whatever his most recent project is, and then ending up LOVING the project (see: the Japanese commercial, Mr. Punchy, stealing the police car, even talking about the bat signal). That's such a brotherly thing.
And with Parker... Gah. I just don't see it with Eliot. I really think she's drawn to him as a proxy for the brother that she lost. THAT'S why she is always so physically close to him, why she has no personal bubble when it comes to him: because he represents to her the only actual family she ever had.
I think she's hard to read--so the audience sees her natural closeness with Eliot and takes it for some sort of sexual interest. Combine that with the ~controlled way that she acts around Hardison, and people see more P/E than P/H.
But I don't think it indicates that at all. I think it's the opposite. That she's so terrified of feeling feelings, that she is really careful around Hardison. And I know, that may sound strange when she's just grabbing him and kissing him. But she's IN CONTROL when she does that. She's distanced from the actual desire to kiss, and she gets to disguise that desire beneath "oh, I have to kiss you for the con."
I really just wish people would see the light and ship P/H and then write me fic. WHY, WORLD? WHY!
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Leverage has got to be the best cast in the world. They have such good chemistry. I love them. Have an Eliot icon.
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Agreed with EVERYTHING here! :D
I've long since given up HIMYM, so I'll have to take your word on that. But it creates a weirdness, doesn't it, when we know that it's not going to be Ted and Robin in the end?
I LOVED how this was dealt with. How it skewered the whole love-triangle construct. And how it dealt with exactly the kind of thing you're talking about--making the triangle a plot device instead of coming from the characters. It was so great. Didn't work for me shipping-wise, though.
I need to rewatch now!
What REALLY, REALLY works for me about this triangle, is the antagonism and smoldering feelings between Veronica and Logan. And I think it really works from a character-development angle: Veronica's retreating from the vulnerability that she felt with Logan. Looking for stability, safety with Duncan. And yet all those feelings are still there. She's STILL vulnerable to/with Logan. Way more so than she is with Duncan. And she's not even WITH Logan. So... I'm rambling. My point is, I don't care about that part of the triangle, but it still works for me because I think Veronica needs it in order to figure out that she's going to be drawn to Logan no matter what.
Agreed. Well-put! And I enjoy Veronica and Logan trying to hide their attractive behind snark more than I can say.
YOUR THOUGHTS ON LEVERAGE I LOVE YOU SO MUCH I CANNOT.
And I still do intend to write you fic at some point! I do I do!
All of your beautiful THOUGHTS
I think love-triangles in fiction works best for me when I see a connection between the two men... Like Portrait of a Lady's Ralph/Goodwood/Isabel = SO NOT ABOUT ISABEL. OMG. CANON.
Or - Veronica Mars: Logan/Weevil/Lilly/(Veronica)... Lily is GONE and that Trio STILL MAKES SENSE.
(I'm trying to think of more like this and am drawing a blank - I'm pretty sure Logan/Weevil WIN at this game.)
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God, I'm only 3 episodes into MaWang and I cannot wait to LOVE ON THIS.
But K-dramas that do the Trio well: City Hunter and Boys Over Flowers: partially because they both make it clear that the boys are just as important to each other as to the female...
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And then toss Katherine in here, and how Damon loved her too much and Stefan didn’t love her enough and she loved both of them (WHATEVER IT’S CANON, BITCHES), and I just love what a tangled mess these ridiculous people are.
OMG YES! I was watching S2 with a friend the other day and when Katherine told Damon she never loved him I had to bite my tongue so hard. THAT GIRL AND HER FACE. Katherine LOVES EVERYONE!
(I'm also a sucker for Elijah/ALL THE DOPPLEGANGERS!)
If you like triangles, you should try on Fringe - there's some fun things going on there with triangles. It takes a couple seasons - but it's rather heartbreaking and even if I've only seen three seasons I still want EVERYONE WITH EVERYONE.
(Twin Peaks has that effect on me too...)
Re: All of your beautiful THOUGHTS
(I'm trying to think of more like this and am drawing a blank - I'm pretty sure Logan/Weevil WIN at this game.)
TOTALLY. Logan/Weevil/Veronica/Lilly is delightful. I don't know how they didn't work Logan and Weevil into more scenes together--those two had so much chemistry.
Re: All of your beautiful THOUGHTS
/nods
Logan and Weevil for President
Re: All of your beautiful THOUGHTS
I agree with this totally. I have zero interest in Buffy/Angel, but throw Spike in there and his complicated relationship with Angel, and I suddenly become interested. That definitely applies to, say, Tony/Michelle/Sid above, too.
Logan/Weevil/Lilly/(Veronica)... Lily is GONE and that Trio STILL MAKES SENSE.
This is true! There were never enough Logan and Weevil scenes! Remember that time they got detention together and snarked at the teacher and then at each other? Best.
God, I'm only 3 episodes into MaWang and I cannot wait to LOVE ON THIS.
IT IS SO GOOD. (I keep saying that.) It's a more complicated love triangle than usual, precisely because of the guys and their relationship, but oh so worth it.
City Hunter is on my to-watch-very-soon list! I hear such good things about it!
Katherine LOVES EVERYONE!
I KNOW! And when she tells Elena that it's okay to love them both--she did...I probably screamed out loud.
Oh, Elijah! HIS FACE!
I may check out Fringe someday. Lincoln Lee's face gives me feelings even though I don't watch it.
Re: All of your beautiful THOUGHTS
Logan/Weevil/Lilly = my OT3 forever. Those boys should have ALL THE SCENES.
I KNOW! And when she tells Elena that it's okay to love them both--she did...I probably screamed out loud.
Possibly my favorite moment of all the moments in the series, ever. I'm pretty sure I laughed hysterically and got teary or something. Have you heard Christina Perri's "A Thousand Years"? I have KATHERINE FEELINGS about that song that are intense and completely wordless...
Oh, Elijah! HIS FACE!
Dude. HIS FRACKIN FACE!
Lincoln Lee's face gives me feelings even though I don't watch it.
I had all these Peter's!FACE feelings and then there was LINCOLN'S PUPPY FACE! I can't even... These boys and their puppy faces.
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Right. I mean, I get that in real life polyamory isn't for everybody, but, dude, it's fiction and most of the characters I care about already have unconventional lives and relationships.
This is why I hate angsty dilemma love triangles. It feels like an artificial, abrasive source of angst. (... maaaybe not in historical setting, I guess? But I'd love to read a historical thing about a married couple being both in love with, say, a rake, or a spinster, or whatever, and, like, corresponding in happy clandestine threesomeness forever and ever. Kinda like the RDJ Sherlock Holmes films! <3)
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This is why I hate angsty dilemma love triangles. It feels like an artificial, abrasive source of angst.
Exactly.
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No, I definitely think that's true. Weeeeird.
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SO MUCH THIS! Always my go-to example of a “teen love triangle” (lawl, just typing those words make me twitch) done well. I actually couldn’t believe what I was seeing and liking, haha. The way I saw it too, they weren’t screwing each other so much as they were screwing Tony, who had screwed them both over. So fascinating to watch. Tony was kinda bad at the way he went about it at first, but saying “I love you” to both of them was the truth. And that was what they all needed.
How do you feel about Gale/Katniss/Peeta? Because that one didn’t do much for me, and I think Prim was sacrificed on the altar of that love triangle. That makes me very cranky.
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YES YES YES.
I felt like Gale only existed to be the external embodiment of Katniss's past, to balance out Peeta. I didn't feel like he actually needed to exist at all, so I was annoyed by the love triangle.
I actually loved that she killed off Prim, as much as it hurt. It made so much sense to me. But I can see why you'd say that.
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That's how I feel too. I honestly didn't see the need to make him the Other Romantic Option also. The amount of page time that the pining stuff took up in Catching Fire and Mockingjay drove me nuts. But I did like their friendship, and I enjoy Gale quite a bit in fanon.
Well it's not the fact of Prim getting killed off that makes me angry. Just it's placement in Mockingjay. It felt to me like: "oh, still have to get rid of Katniss's reason for fighting AND her romantic connection with Gale-- why not both at the same time? Boom!" It felt late and cheap, I guess. And when Gale says something like "you'll always connect her death to me", I couldn't help but think: psssh, how convenient.
But then Mockingjay was so messy that maybe by the end, I was extra-cynical. Still don't know what to think of that book.
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BUT ANYWAY! I think the reason I don't like a lot of love triangles is because of what a friend explained to me about their logic–y'know, it's the woman deciding what part of herself she wants to embrace, which is usually distilled into good boy/best friend vs. bad boy. You know, does she choose the reliable/steady person, or does she more fully acknowledge the adventurous/risk-taking part of her personality?
I think the problem there is that I end up thinking that there's gotta be a better way to show a girl/woman exploring herself as a person without it tying into "and she needs a boy to be a complete person"-type shenanigans. I am probably too tired to be explaining that right. *g*
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Me, too!
I think the problem there is that I end up thinking that there's gotta be a better way to show a girl/woman exploring herself as a person without it tying into "and she needs a boy to be a complete person"-type shenanigans. I am probably too tired to be explaining that right. *g*
No, I totally agree and that makes loads of sense.
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I mean, seriously, did anyone in the world actually think that Bella was going to choose Jacob over Edward?
Nope. But I do get being in a situation where you're really invested in something that you KNOW is doomed, lol. From what I've seen, Bella/Jacob fandom is/was very much like that.
2) Y E S. Though I diverge somewhat in that I actually think the essence of D/E/S is that Elena will choose neither/both of them. The way I see it, TVD is Elena's coming-of-age story, and Stefan and Damon represent her light and dark ~sides, so it's kind of massively important to my interpretation of the text that "it's always gonna be Stefan" is smashed into many tiny pieces, just like "you are the opposite of Katherine" needs to be annihilated into many tiny pieces - because Elena's persistent identification of herself in ~opposition~ to certain people is just not the way to be, you know? By choosing Stefan she chooses a certain version of herself, the person she wants to be, and rejecting Damon (and denying any similarities in herself with Katherine) = rejecting the parts of herself she doesn't like. But this is Elena's journey into adulthood, and at some point she's gonna have to confront and ~accept those parts. Not that I think she should choose Damon (this should never happen in any definitive way), but she SHOULD choose herself above all, and that means letting go of the ideal version of herself she imagines when she imagines being with Stefan. She shouldn't choose him either.
/I HAVE FEELINGS ABOUT THIS, LMFAO.
Also yes, it was Ruth! She frequently has the best thoughts. Her tag essay on the D/E doorway scene was a thing of beauty, lol.
(WHATEVER IT’S CANON, BITCHES)
SINGIN' MY SONG.
And hee, you know how I agree with you on all your other examples (except the first one, don't know that). WE HAVE EXCELLENT TASTE, BASICALLY.
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See, that would be awesome and basically eliminate my major issue with love triangles, which is that the Young Lady inevitably ends up defining herself via her relationships with men, and she chooses the relationship that will mold her into the person she wants to be. Which, to me, has a lot of potential for ick.
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Oh, I get that, too. I have zero problem with shipping it, but I just can't imagine anyone thought they would be endgame.
in that I actually think the essence of D/E/S is that Elena will choose neither/both of them.
I definitely hope that's how it ends. I think that's how it's got to end. But on the journey, she's going to keep choosing Stefan, I think.
because Elena's persistent identification of herself in ~opposition~ to certain people is just not the way to be, you know?
YES.
She frequently has the best thoughts. Her tag essay on the D/E doorway scene was a thing of beauty, lol.
Girlfriend is a genius.
WE HAVE EXCELLENT TASTE, BASICALLY.
WE DO INDEED.
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Try "It Was a Dark and Stormy Fight" by Miss Murchison
http://home.mchsi.com/~missmurchison/Dark_Stormy.htm
http://home.mchsi.com/~missmurchison/Dark_Stormy2.htm
Spike moaned. They were fighting. They were bloody well fighting over him. This was all wrong. This shouldn't be happening now. He was in too much pain to enjoy it properly.
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Not if I'm writing it. *G*
Also, I would probably pay someone to write me fic wherein Buffy and Angel fight over Spike.
*whistles*
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Speaking personally, I am pretty much NEVER into threesomes. Probably because at a deep, personal level, they just hold no appeal. I kind of feel like there would be one person who would be loved less (and if I was ever in that situation, that one person would be me). I also share your frustration with the OBVIOUSNESS of pretty much every love triangle ever. We ALL know which pairing is endgame going it.
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I feel like the boring characters weigh the rest of them down when they force this sort of thing. Duncan Kane, you are dead weight. Basically.
. I kind of feel like there would be one person who would be loved less (and if I was ever in that situation, that one person would be me).
This is tooootally how I feel about it in real life (right down to the "it would be me" thing), but for some reason I'm fine with in fiction.
I also share your frustration with the OBVIOUSNESS of pretty much every love triangle ever. We ALL know which pairing is endgame going it.
IT MAKES ME BANG MY HEAD AGAINST THE WALL.
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This is worlds of trufax. And I'm sorry, but after season one, there was NO NEED to have him around. So much of why I hated season two had to do with him and how Veronica acted around him.
I also share your frustration with the OBVIOUSNESS of pretty much every love triangle ever. We ALL know which pairing is endgame going it.
IT MAKES ME BANG MY HEAD AGAINST THE WALL.
SAME HERE.
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I've read a couple of really excellent Mary/Matthew/Lavinia pieces, some of which actually emphasized the Mary/Lavinia over Mary/Matthew and Matthew/Lavinia which was so excellent (I think one of them was an AU where Matthew died and Mary and Lavinia found comfort in each other).
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I don't think society is ready for that actually, but I know what you mean. I think one day I intend to write a perfectly equilateral love-triangle and then purposefully end it before anyone chooses anyone else so that it can be OT3 forever. I think that would be fun.
I think one of them was an AU where Matthew died and Mary and Lavinia found comfort in each other
Hey, maybe that one was mine! :D