if you aren't reading this series, you really should be

[lirazel]

So Mark's review of Innocence is up, and he mentioned that Angel deserves to lose his soul, and everyone in the comments are like NUH-UH ANGEL WITH A SOUL IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSON THAN ANGEL WITHOUT A SOUL. Which, a lot of these people are watching the show with Mark, so it makes sense that they think that at this point and it's impossible to argue without spoiling them (not that I'd get into that argument anyway). But there are others who I'm pretty sure have seen the whole show(s), and I kind of want to pat them on the head for still thinking that. "That's...not how it works." /Rory-voice

Also, he made a request for Spike/Angel fic. HEE!

Comments

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I read those comments too. I guess those who see it for the first time might not know better and some who saw all, are still in denial.

Oh god, there would be so much Spangel fic to rec him, when he is done.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yeah, denial's about the only way to maintain that position after seeing the whole show(s), I think.

Hee! I know! He's going to be so excited!

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

It's a very difficult discussion to get into without being spoilery. I too have problems with anyone who's seen the whole show (and Angel) and still believes that they are two separate beings. Angel/Angelus does provide a pretty heavy contrast in the early seasons, but in his own show it's not hard to see Angelus from time to time.

The request for Angel/Spike fic was hilarious. As was the "Everywhere!" reply someone made. It would be hard to rec some though that wasn't going to have spoilers. I'm sure there are some set in season II, but I don't know where or what they are.

[deird1]

I'm getting rather sick of the comments that begin "Oh, but obviously..." NOT THAT SIMPLE, PEOPLE.



It's rather fun suddenly noticing comments from people I recognise, though! Yay! (I'm there too, but slightly incognito.)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

(I'm there too, but slightly incognito.)

I've seen through your cunning disguise. :)

[deird1]

Oh noes! Foiled!

[brunettepet.livejournal.com]

i didn't even go to the comments, but I think I'm going to follow his blog. He's making me want to re-watch "Buffy" and that hasn't happened in a couple of years. It's lovely to see "Innocent" through fresh, excited eyes.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's why I mostly find it amusing instead of annoying: of course people think that at this point in time.

but in his own show it's not hard to see Angelus from time to time.

So true. If you make it through AtS S2 and still think they're different...I don't know what to say to you.

Yeah, the only S/A fics I know are full of spoilers. He's just going to have to wait to the end of the series! And possibly all of AtS as well!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Nothing is ever "obviously" on this show, and that's one of the reasons I love it.

It's rather fun suddenly noticing comments from people I recognise, though!

It is! I'm not commenting, but I like seeing other people do it!

Your cunning disguise still works on me!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It's so much fun! And also kind of terrible because he's so innocent and unspoiled and you want to shout JUST WAIT TILL _____! at him but you can't!

[brunettepet.livejournal.com]

I'll cover my eyes for the soul crushing bits (though I'll certainly peek through my fingers because, hey, we all went through them once).

[deird1]

*is mysterious*

Well, as a clue... I'm keeping a rather fun Count going. On days that are not this one, because it would be totally irrelevant today. (Its next appearance will be in four episodes' time.)

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

But... despite Giles's Watcher ideology, which is the only argument that those commentators are using, the first 2 seasons of the show are constantly treating the souled and soulless version of Angel as one and the same guy. They didn't even use the "Angelus" moniker for soulless Angel - Jenny does it once, but everyone else keeps calling him "Angel", including himself, and he constantly talks about having done the things that, in this scenario, he should be saying the other guy did.

I wrote two big posts this evening proving that they're one and the same, and apart from one rot23ed paragraph, I just used the evidence from the show up until "Innocence". ("Angel", "Lie to Me" show him talking about the things *he* did when he was soulless, "Innocence" has him talking about the things that he did or that happened to him when he was souled.)

Since it was not the topic, I didn't even mention that "Angel" and "Halloween" also prove that he considers himself the same person as when he was human. ("I killed my parents", and when he says that he despised the noblewomen of his time as "simpering morons".)

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

I agree about the contrast between his two personas (though I now can see the moments when Angelus seeps through in Angel's behavior - watch the scene between him and Xander in Prophecy Girl and compare it with their scene in Killed by Death). I used to really disassociate those two personas back in the day, they seemed so different.

But I never thought they were literally two people. Mostly because the characters on the show, including Angel himself, constantly talked about Angel having done this or that, not about two different guys. He always talked about the terrible things *he* did in the past, not some other guy, and as Angelus he talked about the way Buffy made *him* human and what happened to *him*, not some other guy.

In fact, when I first started looking for Buffy online communities after having seen just the first 3 seasons, I ran across some poll of favorite Buffy characters, where Angel and Angelus were listed as two characters, and I was like: WTF? It didn't even occur to me that someone would treat them as separate characters any more than they would treat Wolf!Oz as a separate character from Oz.

Ironically, the characters on the show (including Dru, Spike and Angel himself) were all using the name "Angel" for soulless Angel (the shooting scripts did the same) except for Jenny at one point in "Innocence". The habit of using "Angelus" for soulless Angel didn't start until "Enemies".

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

True enough--I don't disagree at all! But I think most people take the Watcher ideology as fact. It's a very widespread idea. I can't say why, but I guess they're going with what's explicitly stated as opposed to what's shown.